Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 115 (8734 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-27-2017 4:29 PM
447 online now:
Greatest I am, jar, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Theodoric, ThinAirDesigns (6 members, 441 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: timtak
Post Volume:
Total: 802,024 Year: 6,630/21,208 Month: 2,391/2,634 Week: 54/525 Day: 29/25 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123
4
56Next
Author Topic:   Still small voice of God found
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 46 of 77 (789799)
08-19-2016 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
08-19-2016 11:44 AM


Re: God In A Box
ringo writes:

Sure it can. A mountain is complex but nobody suggests that it had to be "designed" by anything but aimless natural processes.

It is one thing to get to mountains from mindless and probably dimensionless particles, but it is another step further to get to sentient beings with an understanding of morality.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 08-19-2016 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 08-20-2016 11:50 AM GDR has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 47 of 77 (789801)
08-19-2016 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Riggamortis
08-19-2016 1:05 PM


Re: God In A Box
Just the fact that you label my belief as fantasy puts you at the same level I am at.
Christianity is not a fantasy. Perhaps the Humanist Manifesto folks are also sincere, but in my opinion they too have a fantasy in that they think humanity will solve its problems without need of a God.

Welcome to EvC, by the way. We usually disagree here...and that makes it fun!

I will help you start a topic. I set you up Here. Feel free to add to it or edit it as you wish. One of us will promote it for you after you respond to it.

Edited by Phat, : added new information.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Riggamortis, posted 08-19-2016 1:05 PM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Riggamortis, posted 08-20-2016 6:41 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 48 of 77 (789830)
08-20-2016 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by GDR
08-19-2016 1:49 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

It is one thing to get to mountains from mindless and probably dimensionless particles, but it is another step further to get to sentient beings with an understanding of morality.


That's an empty claim. In fact, mindless evolution does a better job of explaining morality than religion does. As often as not, it's the mind that gets in the way of morality. And especially, it's the many different "voices of God" that get in the way of morality.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 08-19-2016 1:49 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 08-20-2016 6:40 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 49 of 77 (789839)
08-20-2016 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ringo
08-20-2016 11:50 AM


Re: God In A Box
ringo writes:

That's an empty claim. In fact, mindless evolution does a better job of explaining morality than religion does. As often as not, it's the mind that gets in the way of morality. And especially, it's the many different "voices of God" that get in the way of morality.

Of course I don't believe that evolution is mindless. Certainly we can see that there are natural processes involved but we cannot tell whether or not evolution has an intelligent agent as its cause or not. I believe that it does.

Also I believe that there is only one God and it is kinda up to us to sort out what He desires for us in the midst of all those other voices.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 08-20-2016 11:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 08-20-2016 7:01 PM GDR has responded
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 08-21-2016 2:11 PM GDR has responded

    
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 110
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 50 of 77 (789840)
08-20-2016 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
08-19-2016 5:20 PM


Re: God In A Box
You can delete the other thread.

Perhaps they are sincere? What are you trying to imply here? That they know god exists, but are using the guise of helping others as a method to convince people to reject him? You realise it's not just your pet jesus they reject, right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 5:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 6:48 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 51 of 77 (789841)
08-20-2016 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Riggamortis
08-20-2016 6:41 PM


Re: God In A Box
You can delete the other thread.
We close them---we never actually delete threads. My apologies for assuming that you wanted to start one. I have since done as you suggested and started A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto.
Perhaps they are sincere? What are you trying to imply here? That they know god exists, but are using the guise of helping others as a method to convince people to reject him? You realise it's not just your pet jesus they reject, right?
i am aware of what they reject and address it in my new thread. Perhaps we can discuss it there.
(Once someone promotes it)

Again...welcome to EvC.

Edited by Phat, : spellcheck


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Riggamortis, posted 08-20-2016 6:41 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4408
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 52 of 77 (789842)
08-20-2016 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by GDR
08-20-2016 6:40 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

Certainly we can see that there are natural processes involved

Please point to an single unnatural process that is involved.

but we cannot tell whether or not evolution has an intelligent agent as its cause or not.

Yet we have enormous quantities of evidence that it's entirely a natural process and absolutely none that it's not. Unless, of course, you can tell us otherwise.

I believe that it does.

Yup, that's all you have. And it doesn't bother you at all that that's all you have. But it should.

Nevertheless, you're a product of the new age. You're forced to accept knowledge. Your beliefs are liberal Christian. Soon, like the majority of Northen Europe those beliefs will generalise further; that's progress.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 08-20-2016 6:40 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by GDR, posted 08-20-2016 7:12 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 53 of 77 (789843)
08-20-2016 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
08-20-2016 7:01 PM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:

Yet we have enormous quantities of evidence that it's entirely a natural process and absolutely none that it's not. Unless, of course, you can tell us otherwise.


Sure all we can see are the natural processes. There would be no discernible evidence as to whether the process was intelligently created or not. We just see the changes and in general we can see how those changes happened. We would have no way of knowing whether or not there is an intelligent root cause so in the end all we have are our conclusions or beliefs.

Actually the fact that we can use science and biology to intelligently find a natural process is indicative that there is an intelligence that is responsible for the process, but I have a hunch you won't see it that way.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 08-20-2016 7:01 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Riggamortis, posted 08-20-2016 9:05 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2016 3:26 AM GDR has responded

    
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 110
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 54 of 77 (789844)
08-20-2016 8:28 PM


Still small voice of.. Us?
There is no reason to believe that our conscience is anything other than the name we give to our reasoning process while asking ourselves a moral question. The fact that everyone has a different process and reasoning abilities explains rather nicely the variation in the choices we make.

The way I experience thought is basically talking to myself in my head. I know this is all subjective but I'd be interested to see if/how much our experiences vary in this regard. If my regular thoughts are my own and my thoughts during my 'conscience' reasoning process are not, why do they feel identical? The thoughts that may be attempting to rationalise the the immoral option are depicted as coming from a little devil while the thoughts leading me to the moral option are depicted as coming from an angel.

I would now like to apply the angel/devil theory to a recent dilemma I faced.
I was angered by the arrogance and hypocrisy displayed by Phat and the devil popped up on my shoulder.
"Rip him a new one! Don't hold back" he said.*
I'd had a few beers and I began to reply. My tone was much the same as the condescending tone that Phat had used. I had several unnecessary insults in there. I stopped writing for a moment. The angel popped up now.
"Don't be so harsh. If you really believed in fairy tales, you'd likely get offended on behalf of a supreme being and reject a movement that actually aligns very closely with Jesus' teachings on that basis alone" she said.*
So I went back through and settled with just labelling his fantastical beliefs as fantasy.
* I don't remember the exact thoughts but they were along those lines.

In this scenario, the 'still small voice of god' was telling me to back off a bit and it seemed to feel sorry for Phat, that he wholeheartedly believes something that is almost surely false. I don't mean to pick on Phat, I just thought it was a good way to explain why, to me at least, the idea that god is driving our consicences is silly. Nor are our 'conscience' thoughts anything different from normal thoughts.


  
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 110
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 55 of 77 (789845)
08-20-2016 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by GDR
08-20-2016 7:12 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

Actually the fact that we can use science and biology to intelligently find a natural process is indicative that there is an intelligence that is responsible for the process because . . . . . .

Italics added by me. The reason only the faithful will accept your statement is simple. It is incomplete. As it stands it is a baseless assertion, fill in the blanks and maybe we'll have something to talk about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by GDR, posted 08-20-2016 7:12 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4408
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 56 of 77 (789857)
08-21-2016 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by GDR
08-20-2016 7:12 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

Sure all we can see are the natural processes. There would be no discernible evidence as to whether the process was intelligently created or not.

You keep conflating issues.

We both know that we were created by our parents. We know the process. We both know that evolution was the force that created the human species. We know that the brain and the endocrine system is responsible for our thought and emotional processes. Now we can actually see the specific parts of the brain that handles the emotional reaction that we call empathy.

We both agree that we don't (yet) know how the entire process began but for the purposes of this thread it doesn't matter. You keep saying that god intervenes in earthy matters routinely. Yet we see no evidence of it. I think you claim that the feelings you have that causes you to feel sorry for other people - empathy - is god intervening. Have I got that right? This 'still small voice' is god 'talking' to each of us personally. Is that what you belive?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by GDR, posted 08-20-2016 7:12 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by GDR, posted 08-21-2016 11:45 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4408
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 57 of 77 (789863)
08-21-2016 7:33 AM


If it helps, let's be specific, when you see a picture like this, is it god telling you to feel sorry for this person and want to help or is it a universal human reflex that's built into us - something we can't help?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by GDR, posted 08-21-2016 9:17 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 58 of 77 (789864)
08-21-2016 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tangle
08-21-2016 3:26 AM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:

We both know that we were created by our parents. We know the process. We both know that evolution was the force that created the human species. We know that the brain and the endocrine system is responsible for our thought and emotional processes. Now we can actually see the specific parts of the brain that handles the emotional reaction that we call empathy.

That is like saying though that because we can see a generator producing electricity and observe the flow of electrons and understand what how that generator works, that we can forget about the fact that the generator itself required a source of energy in the first place.

Tangle writes:

We both agree that we don't (yet) know how the entire process began but for the purposes of this thread it doesn't matter. You keep saying that god intervenes in earthy matters routinely. Yet we see no evidence of it. I think you claim that the feelings you have that causes you to feel sorry for other people - empathy - is god intervening. Have I got that right? This 'still small voice' is god 'talking' to each of us personally. Is that what you belive?

Partly, but of course we are influenced by life’s experiences and what others say and do etc. However ultimately yes, I do believe that the ability to love unselfishly and even sacrificially ultimately can be traced back to God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2016 3:26 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2016 12:36 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4408
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 59 of 77 (789865)
08-21-2016 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by GDR
08-21-2016 11:45 AM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

That is like saying though that because we can see a generator producing electricity and observe the flow of electrons and understand what how that generator works, that we can forget about the fact that the generator itself required a source of energy in the first place.

Yes, it's exactly like that. At the moment I'm trying to get you to talk about what's happening at the lightbulb - the generator is a different problem altogether. I'm allowing you a god given generator for the process of evolution, I'm trying to understand why you seem to be talking about empathy being driven by a different and supernatural process.

Partly, but of course we are influenced by life’s experiences and what others say and do etc. However ultimately yes, I do believe that the ability to love unselfishly and even sacrificially ultimately can be traced back to God.

Traced back to god directly - ie he's intervening minute by minute with our lives? or indirectly by kicking off evolution billions of years ago on a path that he knew would give us these traits? When we look at that picture, what do you think is happening to us? Are we reacting naturally or is there supernatural intervention making us feel sorry for the guy andmaking us want to help him?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by GDR, posted 08-21-2016 11:45 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 08-21-2016 9:10 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 60 of 77 (789867)
08-21-2016 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by GDR
08-20-2016 6:40 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

Certainly we can see that there are natural processes involved but we cannot tell whether or not evolution has an intelligent agent as its cause or not.


So you're just preaching Intelligent Design, which is just another form of creationism.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 08-20-2016 6:40 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 08-21-2016 9:22 PM ringo has responded

  
Prev123
4
56Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017