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Author Topic:   A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto
Phat
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Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 31 of 60 (789944)
08-22-2016 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
08-22-2016 1:28 PM


Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
You don't get it? Shall I say thats pitiful?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 1:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 1:49 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
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Posts: 28453
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 32 of 60 (789945)
08-22-2016 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
08-22-2016 1:47 PM


Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
Phat writes:

You don't get it? Shall I say thats pitiful?

Yup, I don't get it and what is pitiful?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 1:47 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 2:13 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:42 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 33 of 60 (789950)
08-22-2016 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
08-22-2016 1:49 PM


Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
You want me to defend your position? Touche

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 1:49 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 34 of 60 (790283)
08-29-2016 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
08-22-2016 1:49 PM


Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
Well anyway, lets move on to the Humanist Manifesto III the final of three manifestos.
Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without super-naturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

The life-stance of Humanism—guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience—encourages us to live life well and fully. It evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.

This document is part of an ongoing effort to manifest in clear and positive terms the conceptual boundaries of Humanism, not what we must believe but a consensus of what we do believe. It is in this sense that we affirm the following:

  • Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience—each subject to analysis by critical intelligence.
  • I guess I find nothing wrong with this affirmation. Rational thought is always better than jumping to dogmatic conclusions.
  • Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn to and undaunted by the yet to be known.
  • I wish I could be so optimistic, but I am haunted by the beliefs that I adopted which said that in the so-called End Times people would reject organized religion and embrace just this sort of philosophy. A character known as the AntiChrist would then come to power and cause living hell for 7 years or so before Jesus came back and took names...correcting the evil attempt at dominance. Im not sure exactly what I believe regarding end times any more.
  • Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.
  • If jar is right and Original Sin was only a made-up con job than this statement will work. Otherwise we are headed for trouble.
  • Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death. Humanists rely on the rich heritage of human culture and the life stance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty.

  • Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.

  • Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature's resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.

  • Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views. We work to uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process and a planetary duty to protect nature's integrity, diversity, and beauty in a secure, sustainable manner.

  • Thus engaged in the flow of life, we aspire to this vision with the informed conviction that humanity has the ability to progress toward its highest ideals. The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone.
  • If anything at all worries me about this third manifesto, it is the idea of an interdependent one world system. I am skeptical whether such a system will preserve our standard of living. I am skeptical whether or not folks will get along naturally. I am fearful of the dogma I was taught concerning the last days and whether or not it will come true. I am honestly fearful of throwing god away.

    Finally, even though i am a dogmatic obstructionist at heart, I am one of the better ones...for I am smarter than most of them. I worry about what the Biblical Christians will do when faced with the possibility of such a world.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 1:49 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 35 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 5:11 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 45 by Riggamortis, posted 08-30-2016 6:03 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 46 by Riggamortis, posted 08-30-2016 6:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 23990
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 35 of 60 (790285)
    08-29-2016 5:11 AM
    Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
    08-29-2016 3:42 AM


    End Times?
    wish I could be so optimistic, but I am haunted by the beliefs that I adopted which said that in the so-called End Times people would reject organized religion and embrace just this sort of philosophy. A character known as the AntiChrist would then come to power and cause living hell for 7 years or so before Jesus came back and took names...correcting the evil attempt at dominance. Im not sure exactly what I believe regarding end times any more.

    I'm also not sure what to expect but more and more Christians are expecting some kind of worldwide political manifestation soon that is thought of as a Final Act before Jesus returns. But it's not a nonreligious system, it's a religion that will present itself as Christianity though also incorporating most of the religions of the world, and most of the world will consider it to be Christianity. The whole idea of an Antichrist doesn't make sense unless he puts himself in the place of Christ and heads up a religion in Christ's name. (My favorite for the position is the Pope.)

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 36 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2016 7:16 AM Faith has responded

        
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4416
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 36 of 60 (790290)
    08-29-2016 7:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
    08-29-2016 5:11 AM


    Re: End Times?
    Faith writes:

    I'm also not sure what to expect but more and more Christians are expecting some kind of worldwide political manifestation soon that is thought of as a Final Act before Jesus returns

    Nope factually wrong yet again.

    Christians have been saying this since the crucifiction. Never happened, never will.

    Now there are fewer Christians and, of those, fewer fundies believing daft things like that. You're a dwinding minority.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 5:11 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 37 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 7:25 AM Tangle has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 23990
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 37 of 60 (790291)
    08-29-2016 7:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 36 by Tangle
    08-29-2016 7:16 AM


    Re: End Times?
    I'm also not sure what to expect but more and more Christians are expecting some kind of worldwide political manifestation soon that is thought of as a Final Act before Jesus returns

    Nope factually wrong yet again.

    I wonder how many Christian ministries you keep tabs on, from which you get emails and news reports and that sort of thing? Not very many I'd guess, but these are my source of the impression that there is a striking increase in the expectation among Christians that we are witnessing the beginning of the End Times. Ever since I became a believer in the late 80s there has been a fair amount of end times talk among Christians, but that's increased enormously over about the last decade. Ministries that don't usually have much to say about it are now talking about it.

    ABE: I've actually heard some of the big-name preachers on the radio giving sermons on how to live under the sort of persecution that would be faced in the End Times, and though you may think this is standard fare I can assure you it is not, it's quite startling to be hearing such messages. /abe

    But perhaps I'm missing what you think is my factual error? Please enlighten.

    Christians have been saying this since the crucifiction. Never happened, never will.

    Ah, that old canard. Oh well.

    Now there are fewer Christians and, of those, fewer fundies believing daft things like that. You're a dwinding minority.

    That could be, but this dwindling minority does seem to be more strongly than ever convinced the Grand Finale is rapidly approaching. I've even heard reports that it's not just Christians who have this sense of something big coming. However, as I said, there's been buzz on the subject ever since I became a believer, so even though it appears to be increasing and spreading, it could be some time before it's realized.

    If it waits too long of course I'll have to give up on my idea that this Pope is going to be the Antichrist. He's already up there in years. But there's a neverending supply of Popes. It's just that this one is such a good candidate, the very first Jesuit, very ecumenical and aggressive about including everybody under the wing of the RCC, and arguably even more popular than John Paul.

    I wonder if the Humanists will embrace him? He's so willing to embrace everybody, including humanists and atheists and probably even Satanists, that's quite possible.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2016 7:16 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 38 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2016 9:51 AM Faith has responded

        
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4416
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.8


    (1)
    Message 38 of 60 (790303)
    08-29-2016 9:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
    08-29-2016 7:25 AM


    Re: End Times?
    Faith writes:

    But perhaps I'm missing what you think is my factual error? Please enlighten.

    1. The absolute and relative decline of Christianity
    2. The absolute and relative decline of biblical fundamentalism amongst Christians
    3. The abject failure of all prior predictions of end-times.

    Do I really need to provide you with numbers? You are hearing more because you want to hear it. When you buy a new car you start to see them everywhere. It's all very obvious stuff. You have no sense of history or perspective.

    Ah, that old canard. Oh well.

    Yes, the one where prophets predict the end of the world in every generation and it doesn't happen.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 7:25 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 39 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 10:06 AM Tangle has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 23990
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 39 of 60 (790304)
    08-29-2016 10:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 38 by Tangle
    08-29-2016 9:51 AM


    Re: End Times?
    1. The absolute and relative decline of Christianity
    2. The absolute and relative decline of biblical fundamentalism amongst Christians
    3. The abject failure of all prior predictions of end-times.

    I don't know if there's truth in what you say about the decline or it's just your wishful thinking. I know Christianity has just about disappeared in Europe and the UK, but that's a limited frame of reference since it's growing in China and other parts of the world. However, assuming you are right it makes an interesting bit of evidence FOR The end times, because what has to happen for all that to play out is for all the fake forms of Christianity to get united together in the One World Religion headed by the Antichrist, leaving only a "remnant" of true believers.

    The failure of prior predictions is a really weird one, since rather than proving the prophecies wrong it just brings us closer to their fulfillment. The Jews were looking for the appearance of the Messiah for some time too, misidentifying various characters who presented themselves, and when the true Messiah came some recognized Him but many didn't. I think we'll have a similar situation as the end times unfold. Many are going to miss it the way so many missed getting on the ark and got swept away in the Flood.

    Do I really need to provide you with numbers? You are hearing more because you want to hear it. When you buy a new car you start to see them everywhere. It's all very obvious stuff. You have no sense of history or perspective.

    I think you are the one who fails at that but be that as it may, my "new car" is getting awfully old for your notion to hold up. Instead of an increase in awareness of the end times I should be seeing a decrease if your analogy to the car made any sense.

    Is there any way to fit this into the topic or is it hopelessly lost?

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 38 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2016 9:51 AM Tangle has responded

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9268
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 40 of 60 (790309)
    08-29-2016 10:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
    08-29-2016 10:06 AM


    Re: End Times?
    Is there any way to fit this into the topic or is it hopelessly lost?
    It applies only in that the Humanist manifestos are similar to what many Christian End Timers have been saying will be the new touchy feely global religion---a religion free of dogma and absolutes where humans simply love each other---no God needed.
    I could almost see Donald Trump entering the Temple and telling God He was fired!
    The Antichrist will affirm the god within all of us and claim that there is no external Deity---that we are the only god there ever will be.(Sounds a bit like Greatest I AM)
    Gnostic Humanist Christianity---aligned with a new pacifist Islam and other former global religions...seems like a great idea but again, as i have said before...only if jars belief that there is no such thing as Original Sin is proven true. In which case jar would be right in that there is no need for Divine Intervention nor a Second Coming. He believes that WE humans are ultimately responsible.
    Time will tell which belief turns out to be correct.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 10:06 AM Faith has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by jar, posted 08-29-2016 10:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 42 by ringo, posted 08-29-2016 12:12 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 28453
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    (2)
    Message 41 of 60 (790311)
    08-29-2016 10:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
    08-29-2016 10:37 AM


    Re: End Times?
    Again Phat, let me say what I believe.

    Phat writes:

    Gnostic Humanist Christianity---aligned with a new pacifist Islam and other former global religions...seems like a great idea but again, as i have said before...only if jars belief that there is no such thing as Original Sin is proven true. In which case jar would be right in that there is no need for Divine Intervention nor a Second Coming. He believes that WE humans are ultimately responsible.

    And think about what you write. If humans are not ultimately responsible then God is responsible for all the problems. Or God is unable to successfully oppose some other force or unwilling to.

    That makes God a royal asshole.

    But what I actually say is that even if Original Sin were real it is irrelevant. We are still responsible for what we do.

    The great con is selling the idea that some belief or act or payment can mediate the effects of Original Sin. And it is both a very successful con as well as an absolutely legal con; bettern the lottery.

    It is selling the idea that God or Jesus will assume your debts.

    But the reality is that there is no evidence that God has actively intervened in the past.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 10:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 12820
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 42 of 60 (790328)
    08-29-2016 12:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
    08-29-2016 10:37 AM


    Re: End Times?
    Phat writes:

    ... the Humanist manifestos are similar to what many Christian End Timers have been saying will be the new touchy feely global religion---


    The Christian End Timers have a vested interest in circling the wagons against the world. "Bring your cash inside the circle. Don't waste it on touchy feely things like feeding the hungry. Give it to us and we'll use it for the Glory of God."
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 10:37 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:45 PM ringo has responded
     Message 44 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 5:09 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9268
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 43 of 60 (790341)
    08-29-2016 3:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
    08-29-2016 12:12 PM


    Re: End Times?
    Any discussion of original sin can continue here.

    ringo writes:

    The Christian End Timers have a vested interest in circling the wagons against the world. "Bring your cash inside the circle. Don't waste it on touchy feely things like feeding the hungry. Give it to us and we'll use it for the Glory of God."

    I seriously doubt whether all or even most Of the so-called Christian End timers believe this way. They know darn well that money will be all but worthless. They like gold, however.

    As far as the touchy feely...we realize that feeding the world is noble. What we worry about is the idea that god is in all of us and that an external Deity is un needed. This will prove to be a giant lie for society...to fall for this innocent and benevolent sounding altruistic belief.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by ringo, posted 08-29-2016 12:12 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 48 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 11:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 23990
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 44 of 60 (790366)
    08-29-2016 5:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
    08-29-2016 12:12 PM


    Re: End Times?
    How odd to think the End Timers stand to benefit in any way from the End Times. The basic idea is that the world will be run by fallen humanity, though calling itself Christianity, and everybody is going to love the Antichrist -- except the real Christians -- he's going to be very popular, offer the world all those solutions to problems found in the Humanist Manifestoes, along with some good old time pagan religion, very likely complete with some pretty fancy witchcraft to dazzle and bemuse. Until he brings back the Inquisition and the Holocaust and all the other murderous programs of the various isms we've seen over the last century, all of which may be part of the great tribulation that is supposed to begin about midway through his seven-year reign. By the time all that gets going you may not like him very much either. "The world" should love and worship him during the honeymoon period though. But my point was that we fundies will be his first victims.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by ringo, posted 08-29-2016 12:12 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    Riggamortis
    Member
    Posts: 110
    From: Australia
    Joined: 08-15-2016
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 45 of 60 (790389)
    08-30-2016 6:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
    08-29-2016 3:42 AM


    Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
    You seem to acknowledge that your fears are irrational, bravo!

    I wish I could be so optimistic, but I am haunted by the beliefs that I adopted which said that in the so-called End Times people would reject organized religion and embrace just this sort of philosophy. A character known as the AntiChrist would then come to power and cause living hell for 7 years or so before Jesus came back and took names...correcting the evil attempt at dominance. Im not sure exactly what I believe regarding end times any more.

    If you view the bible as simply an ancient code of living, authority and law, it is plain to see that the end times dogma is just an empty threat. Likewise with hell, threaten the people to ensure they are good little believers. It's no wonder they found that religious people are more responsive to fear.

    If jar is right and Original Sin was only a made-up con job than this statement will work. Otherwise we are headed for trouble.

    And if I am right, original sin is largely responsible for our apparently greedy etc, nature. If you tell everyone as children that humans are bad and greedy, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Epigenetic effects and the way our brains are wired throughout our growth determine our personalities to a far greater extent than genetics alone.

    Finally, even though i am a dogmatic obstructionist at heart, I am one of the better ones...for I am smarter than most of them. I worry about what the Biblical Christians will do when faced with the possibility of such a world.

    I agree with the former, but would add that I think it has more to do with allowing yourself to think freely, than brute intelligence.

    If a world govt system is put in place by the current mob of plutocrats, under the same financial system, I will not welcome it either.


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