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Author Topic:   A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 76 of 110 (813558)
06-28-2017 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by New Cat's Eye
06-27-2017 2:12 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
New Cat's Eye writes:


God responds


Not to me He doesn't. Haven't we been through this before?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-27-2017 2:12 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2017 3:42 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 77 of 110 (813559)
06-28-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
06-27-2017 10:57 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
Phat writes:

The point is that you are not "buying" a belief.


You admit that you're marketing a belief.

Phat writes:

So whats the difference between refusing the God I market and not buying it?


I'm not buying it because I don't believe a real God would hide. I refuse to accept your excuse that your God is hiding. If He came out of hiding I would not refuse Him.

Phat writes:

You refuse to believe without evidence. True or False?


I've told you more than once before, belief and evidence are not related. if there is evidence, you don't need belief. If there is no evidence, you're allowed to believe but one belief is as good as another.

Phat writes:

New Cats Eye has not seen the product but has seen the results.


I've seen the "results" too and many of them are bad.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 06-27-2017 10:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 78 of 110 (813564)
06-28-2017 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
06-28-2017 3:07 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
New Cat's Eye writes:


God responds


Not to me He doesn't. Haven't we been through this before?

I dunno, but it's still the difference between my relationship with God and your relationship with long John Silver.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 3:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 3:45 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 79 of 110 (813566)
06-28-2017 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by New Cat's Eye
06-28-2017 3:42 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
New Cat's Eye writes:

... it's still the difference between my relationship with God and your relationship with long John Silver.

You claim that God responds to you. If I claimed that Long John Silver responds to me, people would call me crazy. So why shouldn't we call you equally crazy?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2017 3:42 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2017 3:57 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 80 of 110 (813569)
06-28-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
06-28-2017 3:45 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
We know that Long John Silver is a fictional character and a lot of people talk about their relationship with God.

But you can still call me crazy if you want to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 3:45 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 4:02 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 81 of 110 (813570)
06-28-2017 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by New Cat's Eye
06-28-2017 3:57 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
New Cat's Eye writes:

We know that Long John Silver is a fictional character....


We also know that (your) God is a fictional character. Just ask a billion Muslims.

New Cat's Eye writes:

... a lot of people talk about their relationship with God.


A lot of people have a "personal relationship" with their favourite soap opera too.

New Cat's Eye writes:

But you can still call me crazy if you want to.


I'm just saying you're not fundamentally different from me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2017 3:57 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 06-28-2017 8:31 PM ringo has responded
 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2017 10:47 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 82 of 110 (813584)
06-28-2017 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
06-28-2017 4:02 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
ringo writes:

I'm just saying you're not fundamentally different from me.

After all, if you found no evidence, there is no reason to believe that any other human could possibly find any. As for the billion Muslims, their contention is with the prophets, not the Deity itself. I agree with jar who claims that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism worship the same God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 4:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 06-29-2017 11:43 AM Phat has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 83 of 110 (813588)
06-28-2017 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
06-28-2017 4:02 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
We also know that (your) God is a fictional character. Just ask a billion Muslims.

They'd all agree with me that God exists and you're wrong so that's a billion in my favor

I don't doubt that (my) God is "inaccurate", I just doubt that He's fictional.

New Cat's Eye writes:

... a lot of people talk about their relationship with God.


A lot of people have a "personal relationship" with their favourite soap opera too.

New Cat's Eye writes:

But you can still call me crazy if you want to.


I'm just saying you're not fundamentally different from me.

Well you're obviously crazy But maybe I am too

And I was gonna say that maybe your relationship with LJS is on par with mine with God, I dunno what you're doing up there all by yourself, but it's whatever. I don't think I'm very right, I just know it's not fake.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 4:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by NoNukes, posted 06-28-2017 11:55 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 06-29-2017 11:47 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9926
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 84 of 110 (813593)
06-28-2017 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by New Cat's Eye
06-28-2017 10:47 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
I don't doubt that (my) God is "inaccurate", I just doubt that He's fictional.

Interesting. Do you believe that the basis for your belief is something that would stand up to the scrutiny of a scientific investigation?

If not, then why shouldn't that affect your opinion of the beliefs of others regarding say the Flood.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2017 10:47 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-29-2017 8:46 AM NoNukes has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 85 of 110 (813611)
06-29-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by NoNukes
06-28-2017 11:55 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
I don't doubt that (my) God is "inaccurate", I just doubt that He's fictional.

Interesting. Do you believe that the basis for your belief is something that would stand up to the scrutiny of a scientific investigation?

I think the results would be inconclusive, but I'm gonna say "no" here - depending on what you mean by standing up to it. I mean, we'd be dealing with emotions and feelings n'stuff, so I'm not sure how much scientific scrutiny we're going to achieve.

If you're asking about any kind of, say, "success" in that endeavor, then I can more easily so that I don't think that's going to happen.

If not, then why shouldn't that affect your opinion of the beliefs of others regarding say the Flood.

My belief in God is based on direct experience. Nobody here today saw the Flood.

Also, we know for a fact that the entire planet has not been covered in water since humans have been here - so regardless of the basis for their belief I already know they're wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by NoNukes, posted 06-28-2017 11:55 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 06-30-2017 8:14 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 86 of 110 (813642)
06-29-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
06-28-2017 8:31 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
Phat writes:

After all, if you found no evidence, there is no reason to believe that any other human could possibly find any.


Correct. Evidence is evident.

Phat writes:

I agree with jar who claims that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism worship the same God.


Some Muslims, Christians and Jews would agree. Some wouldn't.

What about the Egyptian gods or the Greek gods or the Hindu gods or the Norse gods? Don't you consider them fictional characters?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 06-28-2017 8:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 06-29-2017 2:41 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 87 of 110 (813644)
06-29-2017 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by New Cat's Eye
06-28-2017 10:47 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
New Cat's Eye writes:

They'd all agree with me that God exists and you're wrong so that's a billion in my favor


No, that doesn't count. That's like saying Long John Silver is the equivalent of Holden Caulfield. I might agree that they exist on the same level but I can still like one more than the other.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2017 10:47 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-29-2017 12:36 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 88 of 110 (813655)
06-29-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
06-29-2017 11:47 AM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
New Cat's Eye writes:

They'd all agree with me that God exists and you're wrong so that's a billion in my favor


No, that doesn't count. That's like saying Long John Silver is the equivalent of Holden Caulfield.

No, it's like saying the movie version of Long John Silver is better than the book one.

I might agree that they exist on the same level but I can still like one more than the other.

I'm saying a billion muslims would agree with me that God exists - that their concept of god differs some from mine doesn't make mine a fictional character.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 06-29-2017 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 06-29-2017 12:47 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 89 of 110 (813660)
06-29-2017 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by New Cat's Eye
06-29-2017 12:36 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
New cat's Eye writes:

No, it's like saying the movie version of Long John Silver is better than the book one.


Well, the Robert Newton version is better than the Wallace Beery version or the Eddie Izzard version. (I haven't seen the Charlton Heston version). The book is better than most of them.

But we're comparing one fictional character with another, not one denomination of fans with another.

New Cat's Eye writes:

I'm saying a billion muslims would agree with me that God exists - that their concept of god differs some from mine doesn't make mine a fictional character.


And I'm saying that existence is not the salient factor. Even a god that "exists" might be a false god. False and fictional are closely related.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-29-2017 12:36 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 90 of 110 (813676)
06-29-2017 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
06-29-2017 11:43 AM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
ringo writes:

And I'm saying that existence is not the salient factor. Even a god that "exists" might be a false god. False and fictional are closely related.

A lot depends on how an issue or belief is framed.

As an example, in my life I have at one or more times had direct experiences perceiving unexplained events. I can't say to the audience that such events were objective proof...since nobody saw or heard what I saw and heard. (as well as two other witnesses) I will mention that these events are necessarily subjective. My perception is the only thing we have to go on. Two others saw essentially the same thing and heard it and none of us were under the influence of any controlled substance. Confirmation bias may well fill in the blanks...as I believe that there is One Spirit and a host of wannabe imitators. Thus in my mind, a voice...feeling...or even observation can be subjectively said to "exist" and yet confirming my belief that it is a false god. A demon. You may choose to frame such an issue as unexplained fiction. I cant control how you frame such descriptions, but I can tell the story of my perceptions.

ringo writes:

Evidence is evident.

How I wish I would have had an audio recorder! Such sounds would of course still be rightly questioned, however.

ringo, responding to NCE writes:

You claim that God responds to you. If I claimed that Long John Silver responds to me, people would call me crazy. So why shouldn't we call you equally crazy?

People can and do. Granted I have a measure of respect within my community due to my reputation for questioning things that most believers won't even touch. Also, I will admit that believers usually believe me while atheists/skeptics are usually skeptical towards me. We still get along, though!
NoNukes, responding to NCE writes:

Do you believe that the basis for your belief is something that would stand up to the scrutiny of a scientific investigation?


Which is a valid question.
NCE writes:

I think the results would be inconclusive, but I'm gonna say "no" here - depending on what you mean by standing up to it. I mean, we'd be dealing with emotions and feelings n'stuff, so I'm not sure how much scientific scrutiny we're going to achieve.

And I feel the same way about my experience standing up to scrutiny. I have to admit that my experience is unevidenced...apart from two friends who to this day could tell the story the same as I tell it...from their own eyewitness experience. In other words, we did not make it up.
ringo writes:

What about the Egyptian gods or the Greek gods or the Hindu gods or the Norse gods? Don't you consider them fictional characters?

Soe of the stories and legends are characters in a book...much as Long John Silver. Nothing more. Others are demons. Yes thats entirely my subjective opinion. In my mind, I have a high degree of confidance that none of them are the Real Slim Shady.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 06-29-2017 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 06-30-2017 11:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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