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Author Topic:   A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 91 of 110 (813738)
06-30-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
06-29-2017 2:41 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
Phat writes:

Confirmation bias may well fill in the blanks...as I believe that there is One Spirit and a host of wannabe imitators. Thus in my mind, a voice...feeling...or even observation can be subjectively said to "exist" and yet confirming my belief that it is a false god. A demon.


Indeed, whether the observation was real or not, your biases decide whether it's a true god or a false god. If you were biased toward evidence you might have said it was a brain-glitch, or just a misinterpretation of the data.

Phat writes:

Granted I have a measure of respect within my community due to my reputation for questioning things that most believers won't even touch.


Congratulations to your community. Many religious communities would condemn you for questioning anything. When they're fixated on an unsupportable position, condemnation is all they have.

Phat writes:

In my mind, I have a high degree of confidance that none of them are the Real Slim Shady.


So, as I've asked before, how DO you recognize the real Slim Shady? Is it just coincidence that you believe in the same Slim Shady as your neighbours? Is it just coincidence that Cleopatra and Tutankhamen believed in the same Slim Shady, though different from yours?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 06-29-2017 2:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-30-2017 12:07 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 92 of 110 (813749)
06-30-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
06-30-2017 11:46 AM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
So, as I've asked before, how DO you recognize the real Slim Shady? Is it just coincidence that you believe in the same Slim Shady as your neighbours? Is it just coincidence that Cleopatra and Tutankhamen believed in the same Slim Shady, though different from yours?

In my experience, you don't. It takes faith.

I don't know that what I experienced was God. I do think that the concept that most people use the word "God" to describe does fit for the thing that I encountered. I can't tell if my opinions about it our accurate or not, and I don't know if the way my parents raised me was on track.

I asked them about how I was raised, and what they believe, and we all came to the conclusion that it was a good track to be on. While the odds are that we're off on a lot of things, given the reality of God I can be confident that the teachings that I've receieved are an honest attempt to understand what's going on here.

With the history of my family, and those that came before me following in these footsteps (and the successes that this family has achieved and continues to pass forward), I can accept that our religion is a good way to approach an attempt at figuring out this thing that we cannot understand.

So I'm in.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 06-30-2017 11:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 06-30-2017 12:14 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 93 of 110 (813754)
06-30-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
06-30-2017 12:07 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
I could mention pedophile priests but I won't.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-30-2017 12:07 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9921
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 94 of 110 (813807)
06-30-2017 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by New Cat's Eye
06-29-2017 8:46 AM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
My belief in God is based on direct experience. Nobody here today saw the Flood.

No, they did not, but then nobody saw the sun forming from a ball of hydrogen gas either. Most of us don't even have personal experience with the evidence that the sun formed in that way.

I hope it does not seem that I am picking on you. I wrestle with the same questions.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-29-2017 8:46 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 10:07 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9757
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 95 of 110 (813809)
06-30-2017 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
08-21-2016 3:49 AM


Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
It seems that the battle is far from over. The American Humanist Association, a staunch defender of Scientific Integrity recently derided the US Supreme Court for allowing a church to receive federal funding.
AHA Condemns Supreme Court Ruling Sending Tax Dollars to Churches

I would argue that at least some of the taxpayers are Christians...and the church playground benefits secular kids as well...

The issue in my mind is not simply separation of church and state. It is a test as to who calls the shots. The Supreme Court would seem to fill that role.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2016 3:49 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 06-30-2017 9:27 PM Phat has responded
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 3:35 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 96 of 110 (813810)
06-30-2017 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
06-30-2017 9:25 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Let's see if the Mosque and Temple and Satanist Cabal are given the same funding.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 06-30-2017 9:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 06-30-2017 11:17 PM jar has responded
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 07-01-2017 8:46 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 97 of 110 (813816)
06-30-2017 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
06-30-2017 9:27 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Trust jar to be sure we have lots of wolves in the hen house.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 06-30-2017 9:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 07-01-2017 7:20 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5063
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 98 of 110 (813825)
07-01-2017 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
06-30-2017 9:25 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Phat writes:

It seems that the battle is far from over.

Of course it isn't. There are still whole swards of the world consumed by religion. Religion has had people by the throat for thousands of years - it's only been challenged by reason for a couple of hundred.

The American Humanist Association, a staunch defender of Scientific Integrity recently derided the US Supreme Court for allowing a church to receive federal funding.

Quite rightly.

AHA Condemns Supreme Court Ruling Sending Tax Dollars to Churches
I would argue that at least some of the taxpayers are Christians...and the church playground benefits secular kids as well...

So what? Separation means separation - if the state is funding churches it's not separate from them.

The issue in my mind is not simply separation of church and state. It is a test as to who calls the shots.

It's simple, the answer is the state. How can it be anything else? The state represents ALL the people not just some of them. You have to ask 'which church?' Every believer will assume it's theirs and not the others. That's why separation was decided right at the beginning by your founders.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 06-30-2017 9:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Chiroptera, posted 07-01-2017 10:33 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 07-11-2017 3:33 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 99 of 110 (813828)
07-01-2017 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
06-30-2017 11:17 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Faith writes:

Trust jar to be sure we have lots of wolves in the hen house.

We live in the US faith. If public money are used to fund a Christian School playground then the local Madrassa has exactly the same rights to public funds.

Religious Freedom means the Muslim Faith must be treated like the Christian Faith. Jewish Faith must be treated like the Christian Faith. Satanist Faith must be treated like the Christian Faith. Buddhist Faith must be treated like the Christian Faith. Hindu Faith must be treated like the Christian Faith.

Thank God!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 06-30-2017 11:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 8:31 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 110 (813829)
07-01-2017 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
07-01-2017 7:20 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Yes, stupidest thing ever since Islam wants to rule the world, and Satanism is inimical to all sane culture.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 07-01-2017 7:20 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 07-01-2017 8:51 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 103 by jar, posted 07-01-2017 9:34 AM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9757
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 101 of 110 (813831)
07-01-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
06-30-2017 9:27 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
The church claimed discrimination. After all, if the Boy Scouts get funding to improve their playground, surely so too can the church. Thank God the US Supreme Court agreed. As to the other imitators, I suppose they too have a legal basis, though public outcry might shelve the Satanists---or---more likely---the Satanists will eventually force the Christian churches to again lose.

Meanwhile, the boy scouts skate off with public funding! Churches will have to get clever and start Secular programs in order to get funding.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 06-30-2017 9:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 07-01-2017 9:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9757
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 102 of 110 (813832)
07-01-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
07-01-2017 8:31 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Faith writes:

stupidest thing ever since Islam wants to rule the world...

Seculaism will eventually rule the world and will tolerate religions only for so long. The next war will be caused by this. Freedoms will be lost in the name of security.

The sad thing is that the Conservative Christians will do as they have always done and provide only for their own families. Also in regards to the state/church funding, the churches will have to open secular organizations and allow the Islamic and Atheist kids to mingle with the Christian kids. Which may well be Gods overall plan anyway. Isolation won't help.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 8:31 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 103 of 110 (813842)
07-01-2017 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
07-01-2017 8:31 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Faith writes:

Yes, stupidest thing ever since Islam wants to rule the world, and Satanism is inimical to all sane culture.

But the reality is that you live in the US and in the US, Thank God!, we do have freedom of religion. That means that in the US Satanism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, animism, atheism, agnosticism all have equal standing with Christianity.

Sorry Faith but fortunately that is the Law of the Land.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 8:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 9:59 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 104 of 110 (813843)
07-01-2017 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
07-01-2017 8:46 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
As long as we now apply the same standards to requests from any other religious group it will be lawful. But as soon as some fools turn down a request from the local Madrassa the whole concept of Religious Freedom will be tested.

Unfortunately there is a possibility, maybe even a likelihood that that could well happen. Remember "It can't happen here"?

The biggest threat to the continuation of the US as a free nation is the rise of a Charismatic Christian politician.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 07-01-2017 8:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 105 of 110 (813846)
07-01-2017 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
07-01-2017 9:34 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
It's a stupid law of the land if it allows freedom to openly totalitarian murderous "religions."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 07-01-2017 9:34 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 07-01-2017 10:35 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 109 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 10:09 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
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