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Author Topic:   A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto
Chiroptera
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Posts: 6393
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.0


(1)
Message 106 of 110 (813847)
07-01-2017 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
07-01-2017 3:35 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
While sympathetic to your critique (and the AHA's stance), Trinity Lutheran Church v Comer fits well within past precedent of how the Constitutional separation of church and state operates here in the US.

It appears to me (IANAL) that the controlling precedents may include Everson v Board of Education which allows public funds to be used by students of religious based schools under certain restrictions and Lamb's Chapel v Union Moriches Union Free School District forbids excluding groups based solely that they are religious from applying for the same benefits and services that are available generally to all groups. And since this is restricted to just funding for the playground upgrade, it appears to me that it passes the Lemon test (disclaimer: I have not read Lemon v Kurtzman or other cases that explicitly invoke the Lemon test.)

Having skimmed the written opinion, though, I do have some qualms. There are some strange things there that make me suspicious that Roberts is trying to get ready to pare back the separation of church and state. Gorsuch and Thomas wrote concurring opinions that pretty much seems that they are ready to gut church/state separation pretty drastically (Thomas isn't a surprise here, and Gorsuch merely replaces Scalia in this regard.)

I am sympathetic to Sotomayer and Ginsburg's dissent, but (and you need to take into account my lack of formal legal training) I think I would disagree with their legal reasoning.

Sorry for the verbage - especially if it's off-topic. It's one thing to express an opinion on what one would think the perfect situation is, but many of my fellow Americans confuse their pesonal opinions about what they would prefer with what the Constitution actually says and allows, an understanding of which requires a not-particularly deep knowledge of past precedents and how Constitutional law operates in this country.

As I've had to admit before, we are stuck with the Constitution that we actually have, not the one I would prefer.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

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jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 107 of 110 (813848)
07-01-2017 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
07-01-2017 9:59 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Faith writes:

It's a stupid law of the land if it allows freedom to openly totalitarian murderous "religions."

So you might claim; yet the fact it it is the US Constitution. Thank God!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 108 of 110 (813985)
07-03-2017 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by NoNukes
06-30-2017 8:14 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
My belief in God is based on direct experience. Nobody here today saw the Flood.

No, they did not, but then nobody saw the sun forming from a ball of hydrogen gas either. Most of us don't even have personal experience with the evidence that the sun formed in that way.

If The Flood did occur, then God is giving us false evidence - and that's wrong.

Too, if the sun was created ex nihilo rather than forming, then should see evidence of that. Since the evidence suggests that it formed, if it was created then that would be a trick as well.

So it's not just about being based on direct experience, but also what are the ramifications of the belief being true.

My experience with God could have been a trick. But if it wasn't God, then it wasn't God who was tricking me


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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 109 of 110 (813986)
07-03-2017 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
07-01-2017 9:59 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
It's a stupid law of the land if it allows freedom to openly totalitarian murderous "religions."

Who and how do we decide which religions are worth of our protection?


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Phat
Member
Posts: 9764
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 110 of 110 (814662)
07-11-2017 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
07-01-2017 3:35 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
The state represents ALL the people not just some of them.
And yet ALL of the people never agree on anything. In our minds, it is always separation of ________(Insert cause here) and State. We want the state to run the way we feel best represents humanity.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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