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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
ringo
Member
Posts: 13322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 16 of 83 (790105)
08-25-2016 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
08-25-2016 9:08 AM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:

It may well be that proof is elusive without belief and that evidence is never evident without belief.


Of course it's easier to prove something (to yourself) if you already believe it. But to solve a problem what you need is incentive to test your hypothesis. You're less likely to test what you already believe.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 9:08 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 3:33 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 17 of 83 (790106)
08-25-2016 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
08-25-2016 11:48 AM


Re: Evidently Not
Except that God is something (or someOne) that cannot be proven in the scientific meaning of the term. You guys keep demanding evidence and using lack of same to justify your un belief! What else am I supposed to say?

Believers--many of them uneducated as to the reality of critical thinking and bias, keep using examples of where God is involved and how He is involved. Science keeps showing how each process does not need God directly involved in order forsuch and such a process to occur. The whole GOD of the Gaps thing. When it comes to reason itself, the bottom line is that God is not reasonable in the strict critical thinking meaning of the term. And if someone feels they dont really need Him anyway, they become much easier convinced--indeed reassured---that God is a myth.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 08-25-2016 11:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2016 4:41 PM Phat has responded
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 08-26-2016 11:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 18 of 83 (790108)
08-25-2016 4:20 PM


if Presuppositionalism = "goddidit"as a lazy answer
then Presuppositionalism = "religions are all fabricated" as a lazy answer

If you take a look at the OT Bible, it's not mostly about how things should be explained. It's more about the deeds someone being recorded down. Someone who is thought to be maintaining a contact with God.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4886
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 19 of 83 (790110)
08-25-2016 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
08-25-2016 3:33 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:

Except that God is something (or someOne) that cannot be proven in the scientific meaning of the term. You guys keep demanding evidence and using lack of same to justify your un belief! What else am I supposed to say?

Why Phat? The bible is stuffed full of god's interventions in the real world. Religious belief relies on these - prayer, resurectons, transubstantiations - miracles of all sorts -whatever. Science can examine these and find this evidence should it exist. But whenever it has tried, it's been shown to be bollox.

When it comes to reason itself, the bottom line is that God is not reasonable in the strict critical thinking meaning of the term.

Not open to evidence or reason. It's a bloody wonder anyone believes it....

And if someone feels they dont really need Him anyway, they become much easier convinced--indeed reassured---that God is a myth.

Nope. Yet again, you're applying your own thinking to people without your belief system. If you've never heard of 'Him' you can neither accept nor reject him. If you're like me, the concept of 'needing Him' is laughable. I've tried to tell you this before in many different ways, but you keep coming out with the same stuff that shows you just can't grasp it.

To me your Christian god is almost identical to Father Christmas - a totally invented human story. Maybe you can keep that simple explanation in your head. I'm pretty sure you feel the same way about Santa, so next time you try to explain our disbelief, bear it in mind that you don't feel a need to belief in Father Christmas.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 3:33 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 4:43 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 20 of 83 (790111)
08-25-2016 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tangle
08-25-2016 4:41 PM


Re: Evidently Not
To me your Christian god is almost identical to Father Christmas - a totally invented human story. Maybe you can keep that simple explanation in your head. I'm pretty sure you feel the same way about Santa, so next time you try to explain our disbelief, bear it in mind that you don't feel a need to belief in Father Christmas.
Quite simply you have been lied to. Dont ask me to explain who lied to you....you wouldnt begin to believe it anyway.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2016 4:41 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2016 5:04 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4886
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 21 of 83 (790112)
08-25-2016 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
08-25-2016 4:43 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:

Quite simply you have been lied to. Dont ask me to explain who lied to you....you wouldnt begin to believe it anyway.

Yes, I've been lied to about God and lied to about Santa. Both for decent reasons. But I'm not letting you joke it off - otherwise you'll spout your nonsense the next time.

Do you understand what I'm saying when I say that Jesus and Santa are the same to me? If you do, you won't keep making the same mistaken inerpretation.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 4:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 5:06 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 22 of 83 (790113)
08-25-2016 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tangle
08-25-2016 5:04 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Do you understand what I'm saying when I say that Jesus and Santa are the same to me?
Yes, in a way. But didn't you once believe in Jesus as an adult? Very few adults believe in Santa. That's the only real difference.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2016 5:04 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2016 5:21 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4886
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 23 of 83 (790114)
08-25-2016 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
08-25-2016 5:06 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:

Yes, in a way. But didn't you once believe in Jesus as an adult? Very few adults believe in Santa.


No, I 'saw the light' when I was 14.

That's the only real difference.

Yikes, what an admission!

Ignoring that amazing statement, keep in mind that that's how atheists feel about it - the same way you do about Father Christmas. It's no more complicated than that.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 5:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 5:37 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 24 of 83 (790115)
08-25-2016 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tangle
08-25-2016 5:21 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Ignoring that amazing statement, keep in mind that that's how atheists feel about it - the same way you do about Father Christmas. It's no more complicated than that.
Of course its not complicated. But first, just as I dont know how you think, you cant say in a blanket statement that you know how atheists think. Surely you all dont think alike, after all. You can only know what YOU think.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2016 5:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Riggamortis, posted 08-25-2016 10:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 28 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2016 2:26 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 132
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 25 of 83 (790122)
08-25-2016 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
08-25-2016 5:37 PM


Re: Evidently Not
There are three main paths to atheism, having never been indoctrinated and valuing evidence and reason above faith and belief is one, having been indoctrinated but deciding eventually that you value evidence and reason is another and finally, having been indoctrinated before becoming atheist out of pure rebellion. Not definitive and combinations are possible but I think it's close enough.

Given the first two derive their atheism from favouring eveidence and reason, it's really no surprise that they come to many of the same conclusions. Given that theists derive their faith from irrational thought processes, it's no surprise that they can't come to the same conclusions on almost anything!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 5:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 08-25-2016 11:12 PM Riggamortis has responded
 Message 30 by caffeine, posted 08-26-2016 2:46 PM Riggamortis has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 26 of 83 (790124)
08-25-2016 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Riggamortis
08-25-2016 10:16 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Rigs writes:

There are three main paths to atheism, having never been indoctrinated and valuing evidence and reason above faith and belief is one, having been indoctrinated but deciding eventually that you value evidence and reason is another and finally, having been indoctrinated before becoming atheist out of pure rebellion.

I would add a fourth and perhaps far greater path and that is exposure to "THE TRUE™ Biblical Christianity". That is certainly a valid reason to become an atheist.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Riggamortis, posted 08-25-2016 10:16 PM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Riggamortis, posted 08-26-2016 2:11 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 132
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 27 of 83 (790128)
08-26-2016 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
08-25-2016 11:12 PM


Re: Evidently Not
If only THE TRUE™ Biblical Christians could see that!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 08-25-2016 11:12 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4886
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 28 of 83 (790129)
08-26-2016 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
08-25-2016 5:37 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:

But first, just as I dont know how you think, you cant say in a blanket statement that you know how atheists think. Surely you all dont think alike, after all. You can only know what YOU think.

We don't all think alike but we share a common non-belief. It's the non-belief that makes us atheists. That's a non-belief in gods. That's all it is. You don't need to try to make it relevant to any of the tropes of your beliefs.

And if someone feels they dont really need Him anyway, they become much easier convinced?

Just like you never think about how you don't 'need' the gods of the Hindus atheists don't 'need' yours or anyone elses. It's an absense of something that was never there - think Santa.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 5:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 29 of 83 (790141)
08-26-2016 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
08-25-2016 3:33 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:

You guys keep demanding evidence and using lack of same to justify your un belief!


That's where you have it wrong. I don't need to "justify" my unbelief. Unbelief is the default condition. I don't need to justify my unbelief in your God any more than you have to justify your unbelief in Odin.

Phat writes:

And if someone feels they dont really need Him anyway, they become much easier convinced--indeed reassured---that God is a myth.


I don't need heroin. Some people have a false need for heroin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 3:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2016 8:31 PM ringo has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1316
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 30 of 83 (790149)
08-26-2016 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Riggamortis
08-25-2016 10:16 PM


Re: Evidently Not
There are three main paths to atheism, having never been indoctrinated and valuing evidence and reason above faith and belief is one, having been indoctrinated but deciding eventually that you value evidence and reason is another and finally, having been indoctrinated before becoming atheist out of pure rebellion. Not definitive and combinations are possible but I think it's close enough.

You've excluded the most important path which accounts for the overwhelming majority of atheists - growing up in an environment in which most other people were atheists and going along with that. The same way almost everyone else acquires their religious beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Riggamortis, posted 08-25-2016 10:16 PM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Riggamortis, posted 08-28-2016 1:48 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
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