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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 31 of 123 (790166)
08-26-2016 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
08-21-2016 9:13 PM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Welcome back, ME!!!!!!!

I even suspect that there may be a fall of interpretation so my checklist confirms that I am a presuppositionalist. Now what?

I think it would be most important to realize that every worldview has presuppositions, including atheism. The number of them, the extent of them, is comparable in every worldview.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 08-21-2016 9:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by bluegenes, posted 08-27-2016 1:07 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 35 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2016 3:04 AM marc9000 has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


(1)
Message 32 of 123 (790167)
08-26-2016 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
08-26-2016 11:41 AM


Re: Evidently Not
That's where you have it wrong. I don't need to "justify" my unbelief. Unbelief is the default condition. I don't need to justify my unbelief in your God any more than you have to justify your unbelief in Odin.

This implication of a neutrality in atheism is common in the atheist scientific world, but the fact is that every WORLDVIEW has opinions on how the world works - how a society should govern itself etc, and those opinions are on equal footing with religion concerning the threat they pose to the people at large which make up a society.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 08-26-2016 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Riggamortis, posted 08-27-2016 1:58 AM marc9000 has responded
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-27-2016 10:58 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 08-27-2016 11:46 AM marc9000 has responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 33 of 123 (790178)
08-27-2016 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by marc9000
08-26-2016 8:27 PM


marc9000 writes:

I think it would be most important to realize that every worldview has presuppositions.....

What are you presupposing when you express the above view?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2016 8:27 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 34 of 123 (790179)
08-27-2016 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by marc9000
08-26-2016 8:31 PM


Re: Evidently Not
This implication of a neutrality in atheism is common in the atheist scientific world, but the fact is that every WORLDVIEW has opinions on how the world works - how a society should govern itself etc, and those opinions are on equal footing with religion concerning the threat they pose to the people at large which make up a society.

Yes, all morality stems from our presuppositions and subsequent, subjective application of them in the real world. If you presuppose the bible is true, you can easily dislike people just for being gay, for example.

Which common atheist presuppositions pose a threat to society and how?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2016 8:31 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by marc9000, posted 08-27-2016 9:25 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 35 of 123 (790182)
08-27-2016 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by marc9000
08-26-2016 8:27 PM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
marc writes:

I think it would be most important to realize that every worldview has presuppositions, including atheism.

Always the same mistake. Atheism is an absense of a religious worldview - it's no more a worldview than a disbelief in the tooth fairies is.

If we lived in a world where no-one had invented a god, atheism wouldn't even have a name. If there is a presupposition for atheism, it's that others supposed that a god exists.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2016 8:27 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 8:59 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 44 by marc9000, posted 08-27-2016 9:32 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 36 of 123 (790185)
08-27-2016 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Tangle
08-27-2016 3:04 AM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Your case only holds water if NO GODS EXIST. This is not a default position.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2016 3:04 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2016 9:39 AM Phat has responded
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 08-28-2016 2:14 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 37 of 123 (790188)
08-27-2016 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
08-27-2016 8:59 AM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Phat writes:

Your case only holds water if NO GODS EXIST. This is not a default position.

And your case only holds water if Gods do exist. We have to choose the most parsimonious.

No supernatural entities is the null hypothesis. It's that way around because the appearance of a single one disproves it. If it were otherwise we'd have default positions for everything from hob goblins to spaghetti monsters.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 8:59 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 9:43 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 38 of 123 (790189)
08-27-2016 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tangle
08-27-2016 9:39 AM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Essentially, is what you are saying then is that that evidence is the default position rather than belief?

I see the logic, but disagree with the idea that belief is by necessity defined as relative.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2016 9:39 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2016 1:49 PM Phat has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 39 of 123 (790194)
08-27-2016 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by marc9000
08-26-2016 8:31 PM


Re: Evidently Not
This implication of a neutrality in atheism is common in the atheist scientific world, but the fact is that every WORLDVIEW has opinions on how the world works - how a society should govern itself etc, and those opinions are on equal footing with religion concerning the threat they pose to the people at large which make up a society.

You mean like how you hardly ever hear of atheists burning witches?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2016 8:31 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13723
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 40 of 123 (790195)
08-27-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by marc9000
08-26-2016 8:31 PM


Re: Evidently Not
marc9000 writes:

This implication of a neutrality in atheism is common in the atheist scientific world....


Who said anything about atheism? I was comparing one god with another.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2016 8:31 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by marc9000, posted 08-27-2016 9:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 41 of 123 (790197)
08-27-2016 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
08-27-2016 9:43 AM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
[qs=Phat]Essentially, is what you are saying then is that that evidence is the default position rather than belief?[qs]

Without evidence all you can do is waffle - as now. So yes, it's always best to have a hypothesis that can be tested.

I see the logic, but disagree with the idea that belief is by necessity defined as relative.

Belief is relative to what?

This god idea that you can invent something that can't be tested, then claim that it's the natural position against which other things must be compared is daft from any angle.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 9:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 1:55 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 42 of 123 (790198)
08-27-2016 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Tangle
08-27-2016 1:49 PM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
I didnt invent it though. Culturally I may have had an idea of the construct, but when He met me, I undeniably knew that He was not an invention of my mind or feelings.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2016 1:49 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 43 of 123 (790217)
08-27-2016 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Riggamortis
08-27-2016 1:58 AM


Re: Evidently Not
Welcome Riggamortis, I don't think we've met before.

If you presuppose the bible is true, you can easily dislike people just for being gay, for example.

I don't really agree with that - if a person applies the entire teaching of the Bible to his/her own life, it's not going to be easy to "dislike" someone who doesn't interfere with Bible believers (Christians) lives. What causes most of the dislike today is when gay people suddenly want brand new insertion of their lifestyle into the traditional public institution of marriage.

Which common atheist presuppositions pose a threat to society and how?

The main atheist presupposition is that life originated from naturalistic processes, something they can't prove. Further, their presupposition that there is no God leads directly to their belief that humans are the highest form of intelligence, and basic principles that the U.S. was founded on, like the 10 commandments, become subjective. This quickly balloons into lopsided political opinions, like a fear of global warming.

As an example, there is really no serious threat by the Christian community in the U.S. to give authorities permission to force their way into the private bedrooms of gay people and declare what they're doing to be illegal. But there IS a threat by the secular scientific community to demand that automobiles, after they're sold to a private owner, be monitored and regulated in how the engine is equipped, in the interest of controlling pollution standards that they themselves set.

But my main point is that those with any type of naturalist worldview have presuppositions that are comparable in number, severity, in EVERY way, to the worldview of religious people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Riggamortis, posted 08-27-2016 1:58 AM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 44 of 123 (790219)
08-27-2016 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Tangle
08-27-2016 3:04 AM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Always the same mistake. Atheism is an absense of a religious worldview - it's no more a worldview than a disbelief in the tooth fairies is.

Here's the definition of "worldview";

quote:
1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.

2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group. In both senses also called Weltanschauung.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/worldview

Are you saying that atheists DON'T HAVE a naturalistic perspective from which they see and interpret the world? That they don't have a collection of beliefs about life and the universe?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2016 3:04 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-28-2016 12:53 AM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 45 of 123 (790220)
08-27-2016 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
08-27-2016 11:46 AM


Re: Evidently Not
Who said anything about atheism? I was comparing one god with another.

Let's have a look at your message that I was responding to;

quote:
That's where you have it wrong. I don't need to "justify" my unbelief. Unbelief is the default condition. I don't need to justify my unbelief in your God any more than you have to justify your unbelief in Odin.

[bolded mine] You were referring to YOUR UNBELIEF. Looks like atheism to me.

The o/p implied that presuppositionalism is an issue only with religion. It's equally an issue with atheism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 08-27-2016 11:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-28-2016 12:49 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 08-28-2016 2:08 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
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