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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 46 of 123 (790222)
08-28-2016 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by marc9000
08-27-2016 9:41 PM


Re: Evidently Not
The o/p implied that presuppositionalism is an issue only with religion. It's equally an issue with atheism.

No, presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics. Not only do atheists do nothing like it, but to the best of my knowledge nor does any other religion.


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 47 of 123 (790223)
08-28-2016 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by marc9000
08-27-2016 9:32 PM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Are you saying that atheists DON'T HAVE a naturalistic perspective from which they see and interpret the world? That they don't have a collection of beliefs about life and the universe?

Each particular atheist obviously has a worldview, just as each particular disbeliever in the tooth fairy does. But this doesn't mean that all atheists or all disbelievers in the tooth fairy have the same worldview. You would not say, would you, that Ayn Rand had the same worldview as Karl Marx? But they were both atheists, and come to that, atoothfairyists.


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Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 48 of 123 (790226)
08-28-2016 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by caffeine
08-26-2016 2:46 PM


Re: Evidently Not
I did realise that, afterwards. Then I felt icky and the cognitive dissonance kicked in. 😂
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by caffeine, posted 08-26-2016 2:46 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 49 of 123 (790255)
08-28-2016 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by marc9000
08-27-2016 9:41 PM


Re: Evidently Not
marc9000 writes:

You were referring to YOUR UNBELIEF. Looks like atheism to me.


I said that my unbelief in YOUR God is the same as YOUR unbelief in Odin. Atheism would be unbelief in EVERY god.
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 Message 45 by marc9000, posted 08-27-2016 9:41 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 50 of 123 (790256)
08-28-2016 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
08-27-2016 8:59 AM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Phat writes:

Your case only holds water if NO GODS EXIST. This is not a default position.


Of course it is.

The default position is that no Bigfeet exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. The default position is that Narnia doesn't exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary.

The default position is that France doesn't exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. Done.

The default position is that no gods exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary.

And your presuppositions don't count as evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 8:59 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 3:49 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9771
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 51 of 123 (790262)
08-28-2016 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
08-28-2016 2:14 PM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
I disagree with your assessment. There is no general consensus on thios position at all--except from the atheist/agnostic side. Bigfoot was clearly a story invention. Narnia is clearly a place created in a children's story.
France clearly exists. People don't have to go there to prove it.
And Jesus is a well established belief for many hundreds of years. Science only came advanced enough later to proclaim a construct that evidence was their gold standard.

Evidence is not the gold standard among believers. Evidence is not the only standard. The Bible mentions faith/belief as the preferred standard. At best, there are two contrarian positions--each to be given equal consideration. Belief. And Unbelief(or non-belief). No side gets to make up a default position.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 08-28-2016 2:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Asgara, posted 08-28-2016 4:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 53 by jar, posted 08-28-2016 4:25 PM Phat has responded
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 08-29-2016 11:47 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Asgara
Member
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(1)
Message 52 of 123 (790264)
08-28-2016 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
08-28-2016 3:49 PM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Phat, brand new baby is born. Nothing is ever told to him about any religion. He grows up in an area with no religious iconography or stories. He has never been told about the concept of god. What is his default position on a god and religion?
This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 53 of 123 (790265)
08-28-2016 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
08-28-2016 3:49 PM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Phat writes:

Evidence is not the gold standard among believers. Evidence is not the only standard. The Bible mentions faith/belief as the preferred standard. At best, there are two contrarian positions--each to be given equal consideration. Belief. And Unbelief(or non-belief). No side gets to make up a default position.

Of course there is a default position Phat. The default position is that something does not exist unless there is evidence that it does exist.

Phat writes:

And Jesus is a well established belief for many hundreds of years.

Science only came advanced enough later to proclaim a construct that evidence was their gold standard.[/qs]

And again, the evidence is that Jesus and even the Abrahamic Deity (Jews, Muslims and Christians) are both relatively newcomers when it comes to people believing in them. The Vedic deities certainly hold the right of precedence and even Buddhism is far older.

Phat writes:

Science only came advanced enough later to proclaim a construct that evidence was their gold standard.

But evidence should always override beliefs.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 3:49 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 4:34 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9771
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 54 of 123 (790268)
08-28-2016 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
08-28-2016 4:25 PM


Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
evidence should always override beliefs.
And what if there is insufficient evidence? Are you saying belief should then be discouraged? See the problem is that you have taken logic, reason and reality and made human understanding higher than belief. I believe this is a fatal error in human thinking.

The Bible says that "without faith it is impossible to please God". It never says that with out evidence it is impossible to prove God nor should that even be mixed with faith/belief. And before the rest of you go trotting out odin, spaghetti monster, and the ridiculous imagined ilk...know that that is entirely different. Quit trying to convince people that they made religion up. This is simply wrong.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 08-28-2016 4:25 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 08-28-2016 5:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-29-2016 2:22 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 57 by Riggamortis, posted 08-29-2016 3:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 58 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2016 7:10 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 08-29-2016 11:50 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 55 of 123 (790272)
08-28-2016 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
08-28-2016 4:34 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

And what if there is insufficient evidence? Are you saying belief should then be discouraged? See the problem is that you have taken logic, reason and reality and made human understanding higher than belief. I believe this is a fatal error in human thinking.

There is no understanding other than human understanding. Belief is 100% human understanding. I have never said belief should be discouraged but it should be understood to be irrational, unreasonable and unsupportable beyond simply acknowledging it as a personal belief.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 4:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 56 of 123 (790281)
08-29-2016 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
08-28-2016 4:34 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
And what if there is insufficient evidence? Are you saying belief should then be discouraged? See the problem is that you have taken logic, reason and reality and made human understanding higher than belief. I believe this is a fatal error in human thinking.

Do you have evidence for this belief?

The Bible says that "without faith it is impossible to please God". It never says that with out evidence it is impossible to prove God nor should that even be mixed with faith/belief. And before the rest of you go trotting out odin, spaghetti monster, and the ridiculous imagined ilk...know that that is entirely different. Quit trying to convince people that they made religion up.

Surely even you must think that most religions are made up?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 4:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 57 of 123 (790284)
08-29-2016 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
08-28-2016 4:34 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
See the problem is that you have taken logic, reason and reality and made human understanding higher than belief.

We all do this on a daily basis to survive. You probably go to work rather than pray for food and your bills to be paid, no?
You also likely eat dirty food, because of your human understanding.
Your opinion on homosexuals is rather less 'fundie' than others, do you suppose that too, is due to your human understanding?
We in the west do not stone adulterers. I'm sure you'll agree that we shouldn't, despite what the bible says. Possibly because of your human understanding....

I'm starting to see a pattern here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 4:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5071
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 58 of 123 (790289)
08-29-2016 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
08-28-2016 4:34 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

Quit trying to convince people that they made religion up. This is simply wrong.

Eh? But you believe every other religion but yours is false don't you? That thousands of made up belief systems. You know the argument - the default position is that yours is too until proven otherwise. Simply saying that you believe it is not persuasive.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 4:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 59 of 123 (790322)
08-29-2016 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
08-28-2016 3:49 PM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Phat writes:

Bigfoot was clearly a story invention. Narnia is clearly a place created in a children's story.


God is clearly a story invention. Even if there really is a God, the God you believe in is just a story.

Phat writes:

France clearly exists. People don't have to go there to prove it.


But you can go there. The observation of France is repeatable by anybody. The observation of God is not.

Phat writes:

Evidence is not the gold standard among believers.


It should be.

Phat writes:

The Bible mentions faith/belief as the preferred standard.


Not really. Jesus Himself gave evidence when Thomas asked for it. The notion that faith/belief can take precedence is a scam fostered by priests for their own benefit.

Phat writes:

At best, there are two contrarian positions--each to be given equal consideration.


Nonsense. Belief is never anything but Plan B, a backup plan for when there is not enough evidence.

Evidence IS the gold standard, the default position. Belief is never more than a poor substitute.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 3:49 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 60 of 123 (790324)
08-29-2016 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
08-28-2016 4:34 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

And before the rest of you go trotting out odin, spaghetti monster, and the ridiculous imagined ilk...know that that is entirely different.


No. It's entirely the same. Why would you think it's different?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 4:34 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:51 PM ringo has responded

  
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