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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 61 of 83 (790342)
08-29-2016 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by ringo
08-29-2016 11:50 AM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Because there is One God that is not created nor imagined. He is the uncaused first cause.All of the rest have been created/imagined. I suppose you will demand evidence....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 08-29-2016 11:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 08-30-2016 10:00 AM Phat has responded
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 12:01 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4408
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 62 of 83 (790424)
08-30-2016 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
08-29-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

Because there is One God that is not created nor imagined. He is the uncaused first cause.All of the rest have been created/imagined. I suppose you will demand evidence....

Do you think that chanting ritualised propaganda like that is of any use at all outside your church?

When my chemistry teacher chanted the party line that burning hydrogen in oxygen made water, I could check it out myself, but when you guys repeat the stuff you were taught like nursery rhymes do you really expect us to find them anything but laughable?

Particularly when you fail time and time again to address the arguments you've been given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 11:24 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 63 of 83 (790443)
08-30-2016 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
08-30-2016 10:00 AM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
The arguments are your problem, not mine. You have convinced yourself that God doesn't exist.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 08-30-2016 10:00 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2016 7:01 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 64 of 83 (790450)
08-30-2016 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
08-29-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

Because there is One God that is not created nor imagined. He is the uncaused first cause.All of the rest have been created/imagined.


You didn't answer the question. Why do you think your God is different from Odin or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 12:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 65 of 83 (790452)
08-30-2016 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ringo
08-30-2016 12:01 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Because both of those were inventions of the human mind

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 12:01 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 1:11 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 66 of 83 (790462)
08-30-2016 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
08-30-2016 12:10 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

Because both of those were inventions of the human mind


You're still not answering the question. What reason is there to think that your God is not an invention of the human mind?

If there is a "prime mover" that created all that is, how do you distinguish one description of it from another? Is it just a coincidence that you were born into a nation where the prevailing description is the "right" one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 12:10 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 6:43 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 67 of 83 (790478)
08-30-2016 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
08-30-2016 1:11 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Because for one thing the human mind likely would never have invented the God of scripture.
Is it just a coincidence that you were born into a nation where the prevailing description is the "right" one?
The prevailing description in America is not the right One.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 1:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by DrJones*, posted 08-30-2016 6:44 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 69 by jar, posted 08-30-2016 7:36 PM Phat has responded
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 08-31-2016 11:37 AM Phat has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1642
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 68 of 83 (790479)
08-30-2016 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
08-30-2016 6:43 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
it's invented all the other gods (except Odin the Allfather and his kin), what makes your's so unimaginable?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 6:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28433
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 69 of 83 (790484)
08-30-2016 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
08-30-2016 6:43 PM


the God of scripture is a fantasy
Phat writes:

Because for one thing the human mind likely would never have invented the God of scripture.

Except Phat, there really is no God of scripture. There are a whole bunch of different characteristics describing the God character found in scripture and the nature of the character changes with the intent, imagination, mythos and culture of the authors and editors and redactors.

The evidence is overwhelming that the so called God of scripture is absolutely a human invention.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 6:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:41 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 3:01 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 70 of 83 (790495)
08-30-2016 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
08-30-2016 7:36 PM


Re: the God of scripture is a fantasy
Boy are you in for a surprise.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 08-30-2016 7:36 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 71 of 83 (790515)
08-31-2016 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
08-30-2016 7:36 PM


Re: the God of scripture is a fantasy
jar writes:

The evidence is overwhelming that the so called God of scripture is absolutely a human invention.

What about Jesus? Who do you say He is?

Yes, you claim He was human while on earth.

Yes, you claim that He is (so far) a failed messiah.

Yet you claim the Nicene Creed.

So now that GOD raised Him from the dead, who is He to you?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 08-30-2016 7:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 08-31-2016 9:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4408
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 72 of 83 (790520)
08-31-2016 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
08-30-2016 11:24 AM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

The arguments are your problem, not mine.

The arguments are what we're supposed to be here for, if you're not going to take them on, you might as well be in your church on your knees.

Why are you here?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 11:24 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 10:11 AM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28433
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 73 of 83 (790522)
08-31-2016 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
08-31-2016 3:01 AM


Re: the God of scripture is a fantasy
Phat writes:

What about Jesus? Who do you say He is?

Yes, you claim He was human while on earth.

Yes, you claim that He is (so far) a failed messiah.

Yet you claim the Nicene Creed.

So now that GOD raised Him from the dead, who is He to you?

A personal belief and not anything I can explain to someone else.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 3:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 74 of 83 (790527)
08-31-2016 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tangle
08-31-2016 7:01 AM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
I get frustrated,but know when I've been bested. Perhaps I put too much importance into winning arguments and not enough on what the God I believe in can or will do.

At any rate I cannot prove that He exists.

jar writes:

Of course there is a default position Phat. The default position is that something does not exist unless there is evidence that it does exist.

So in essence I am talking then about a character invention of my mind. Got it.
jar writes:

There is no understanding other than human understanding. Belief is 100% human understanding. I have never said belief should be discouraged but it should be understood to be irrational, unreasonable and unsupportable beyond simply acknowledging it as a personal belief.

This is tough to do. I feel that I have failed God if I reduce Him to simply an imagination within my mind.
Dr.A writes:

Surely even you must think that most religions are made up?

I can say that...but its not easy to include mine within that list. And I don't believe that all of them are made up though I have no way to convince or prove otherwise.
Tangle writes:

You know the argument - the default position is that yours is too until proven otherwise. Simply saying that you believe it is not persuasive.

OK you win. Maybe I can beat you at chess later on....
Ringo writes:

Belief is never anything but Plan B, a backup plan for when there is not enough evidence.
Evidence IS the gold standard, the default position. Belief is never more than a poor substitute.

I suppose I cant change anyone's mind on this then, eh?
What reason is there to think that your God is not an invention of the human mind?
For one thing, I believe that He loves me. Cares for me. None of the other gods have done this. If my God were simply an invention of my mind, where do I feel the love coming from?
Tangle writes:

The arguments are what we're supposed to be here for, if you're not going to take them on, you might as well be in your church on your knees.

Why are you here?

Because it gets lonely just staying in church praying for people.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2016 7:01 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 09-01-2016 6:12 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 75 of 83 (790542)
08-31-2016 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
08-30-2016 6:43 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

Because for one thing the human mind likely would never have invented the God of scripture.


What's the difference between the God in your scriptures and the god in anybody else's scriptures?

Phat writes:

The prevailing description in America is not the right One.


What makes you think there is a "right One"? If there are so many "wrong ones", why is yours different?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 6:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 12:19 PM ringo has responded

  
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