Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 91 of 123 (819963)
09-15-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
08-28-2016 2:08 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Assuming that we could agree that every God is Theistic, by definition.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 08-28-2016 2:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:46 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 92 of 123 (819965)
09-15-2017 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
09-14-2017 7:23 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

I would argue that people who stand for the faith rather than waffle on it like an armchair quarterback are themselves evidence of perseverance at least.


What does perseverance indicate? If a Muslim stands by his faith, what does that indicate about the value of his faith? Muslims live through hurricanes. Muslims are persecuted (see Myanmar).

If you have evidence of perseverance, so what?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:47 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 93 of 123 (819967)
09-15-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:14 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

Only because the hypothetical god does not behave as you determine He should behave.


Water behaves as we determine it should behave. If it doesn't behave that way, it isn't water.

Phat writes:

So at best the evidence is subjective.


Evidence can not be subjective. The interpretation of the evidence can be subjective - but if it is, it is inherently inferior to an objective interpretation.

Phat writes:

I maintain that God allows the hurricane simply because micromanaging everything begets a race of couch potato people with no character development.


Why does God have to kill a bunch of people to develop the character of the survivors? Imagine how character-filled our children would be if we killed one in every family.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:00 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 94 of 123 (819968)
09-15-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:14 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

Only because the hypothetical god does not behave as you determine He should behave.

No. I figure that YOUR god - the one represented by the story of Jesus- would not send hurricanes to murder those that he professes to love.

I agree, if you believe that god is a sadist, then the evidence is right there.

So at best the evidence is subjective.

There's no such thing as subjective evidence. And in any case, there's not much more objective than a category 5 hurricane.

I maintain that God allows the hurricane simply because micromanaging everything begets a race of couch potato people with no character development.

That's just utter crap and I suspect you know it. What parent would put their child deliberately in harm's way? Really Phat.....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:53 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 95 of 123 (819969)
09-15-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:29 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:

Assuming that we could agree that every God is Theistic, by definition.


Every God is Theistic but every god may not be. Is deism closer to Theism or atheism?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:50 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 96 of 123 (819970)
09-15-2017 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
09-15-2017 12:37 PM


Perseverence
You are also an example of perseverance, come to think of it. If I found that you had also lived through persecution and perhaps a hurricane or two, I would weigh your beliefs more respectfully.

As it is now, I only see you attempting to muck up the water so that it becomes harder to see the fish in the pond.

You seem to have a good heart, though.

The goal of EvC has been defined as Understanding Through Discussion.

I would argue that understanding by definition is always evolving.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:37 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 97 of 123 (819972)
09-15-2017 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
09-15-2017 12:46 PM


Re: Evidently Not
ringo writes:

Is deism closer to Theism or atheism?

Seems to me its closest to pantheism. This whole idea of an impersonal "force" governing everything irritates me because I cannot conceive of a natural order with no personal authority behind it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:46 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:56 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 98 of 123 (819973)
09-15-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:47 PM


Re: Perseverence
Ringo writes:

As it is now, I only see you attempting to muck up the water so that it becomes harder to see the fish in the pond.


You want me to leave the water clear so you can shoot fish in a barrel?

Phat writes:

I would argue that understanding by definition is always evolving.


That's why we can never stop questioning our understanding.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 99 of 123 (819974)
09-15-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tangle
09-15-2017 12:43 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Tangle writes:

What parent would put their child deliberately in harm's way? Really Phat.....

If your analogy holds...and God is defined as a cosmic Parent...consider that He allows His children to run around in an awfully big yard...one full of danger. My point is this:

How would you hypothetically imagine God removing all of the dangers in the yard and envisioning the world that would then exist?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2017 12:43 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2017 1:26 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 100 of 123 (819976)
09-15-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:50 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:

Seems to me its closest to pantheism.


So is pantheism closer to Theism or atheism?

Phat writes:

... I cannot conceive of a natural order with no personal authority behind it.


Can you picture God making every crystal personally out of His celestial tinker toys? Or personally lighting the fuse on every molecule of hydrogen in the Hindenberg? To me the idea of a personal authority behind natural order just seems silly.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:50 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 101 of 123 (819977)
09-15-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
09-15-2017 12:42 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Why does God have to kill a bunch of people to develop the character of the survivors?
My point is this: How would God remove every possibility of death or dismemberment out of the way of his children? I mean seriously stop and attempt to imagine the world with no danger. No crack in any sidewalk to trip over. No weather abnormalities. And consider how removing hurricanes would affect the global weather pattern in general. Perhaps removing the bad things would also remove the good things..(like rain)

My point (I think.. ) is that demanding that God allow nobody to die or get hurt would change the world we live into something else entirely.

You claim that God is evil for allowing hurt and pain.

I claim that the world as e know it would be impossible if God intervened more.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 1:20 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 102 of 123 (819978)
09-15-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
09-15-2017 12:56 PM


Re: Evidently Not
ringo writes:

Can you picture God making every crystal personally out of His celestial tinker toys? Or personally lighting the fuse on every molecule of hydrogen in the Hindenberg? To me, the idea of a personal authority behind natural order just seems silly.

I see your point.

IF God thus has a hands-off approach to the natural order, everyone calls Him evil.

Damned if He does and damned if he doesn't.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:56 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 1:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 103 of 123 (819980)
09-15-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
09-15-2017 1:03 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:

Damned if He does and damned if he doesn't.


But he's okay if he isn't.

The problem with (your brand of) theism is that you can't have it both ways. You can't give God the credit for all of the good in the world and put the blame on yourself for all of the bad. Either He is the Creator of all things seen and unseen or He isn't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 104 of 123 (819981)
09-15-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
09-15-2017 1:00 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

My point is this: How would God remove every possibility of death or dismemberment out of the way of his children? I mean seriously stop and attempt to imagine the world with no danger.


That's my point. I can't imagine a world without danger - and I can't imagine a God who would allow those dangers. That's why gods seem so unlikely.

Phat writes:

My point (I think.. ) is that demanding that God allow nobody to die or get hurt would change the world we live into something else entirely.


My point is that the world we live in IS entirely different from a world with a loving God.

Phat writes:

I claim that the world as e know it would be impossible if God intervened more.


I claim that the world as we know it indicates that there is no loving God.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:00 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 105 of 123 (819984)
09-15-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:53 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

If your analogy holds...and God is defined as a cosmic Parent

It was YOUR analogy

quote:
Phat writes:
I maintain that God allows the hurricane simply because micromanaging everything begets a race of couch potato people with no character development.

How would you hypothetically imagine God removing all of the dangers in the yard and envisioning the world that would then exist?

I dunno, how about creating something like the Garden of Eden? That sounded like a decent enough place.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:53 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 4:59 PM Tangle has responded

  
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