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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
Phat
Member
Posts: 10264
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 106 of 123 (820226)
09-17-2017 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Tangle
09-15-2017 1:26 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
It has been done.

Lets say that you could hypothetically interview the author of the story(stories)

Would you not ask them their motives and inspirations for writing the story?

Would you ask them why they portrayed God as a villain at times, a rescuer at other times?

What if they said that you were in the story? Would you request helping them to define your character?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2017 1:26 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2017 5:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5267
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 107 of 123 (820227)
09-17-2017 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
09-17-2017 4:59 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

It has been done.

What has?

Lets say that you could hypothetically interview the author of the story(stories)

Would you not ask them their motives and inspirations for writing the story?

No, I'd ask them where they came from

Would you ask them why they portrayed God as a villain at times, a rescuer at other times?

Ditto above

What if they said that you were in the story? Would you request helping them to define your character?

What??? Have you been smoking that stuff again?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 4:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10264
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 108 of 123 (820250)
09-18-2017 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
08-30-2016 8:41 PM


Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith, are you a presuppositionalist?
Wiki writes:

Presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other worldviews. It claims that apart from presuppositions, one could not make sense of any human experience, and there can be no set of neutral assumptions from which to reason with a non-Christian.[1] Presuppositionalists claim that a Christian cannot consistently declare their belief in the necessary existence of the God of the Bible and simultaneously argue on the basis of a different set of assumptions that God may not exist and Biblical revelation may not be true.

I quoted Wiki, but perhaps there are better definitions...Im just curious is all.

By the way, I don't think I am one. I believe in God and I believe that Jesus is alive within me (though I often irritate him) but I dont dismiss secular science.

Edited by Phat, : sub title


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:41 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 09-18-2017 1:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26797
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 109 of 123 (820277)
09-18-2017 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
09-18-2017 11:14 AM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
I don't dismiss secular science either Phat. I wish people would get that straight. I'm against the specific sciences of the past, Old Earth Geology and evolution from species to species. I consider these bogus sciences, but all other sciences are legitimate and valuable because they are testable.

EvC won't let anyone be a presuppositionalist, they demand we prove everything. Otherwise I suppose I'm a presuppositionalist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 11:14 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 12:22 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14015
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 110 of 123 (820346)
09-19-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
09-18-2017 1:42 PM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith writes:

I'm against the specific sciences of the past, Old Earth Geology and evolution from species to species.


If you reject geology, you're rejecting chemistry and physics - not to mention mathematics.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 09-18-2017 1:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 10:48 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26797
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 123 (820386)
09-19-2017 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
09-19-2017 12:22 PM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
I don't reject Geology as such just as I don't reject Biology as such, they both do important work. What I reject is the Old Earth and Evolutionist interpretive schemes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 12:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 3:04 AM Faith has responded
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 09-20-2017 3:17 PM Faith has responded
 Message 123 by RAZD, posted 09-20-2017 4:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5267
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 112 of 123 (820391)
09-20-2017 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
09-19-2017 10:48 PM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith writes:

I don't reject Geology as such just as I don't reject Biology as such, they both do important work. What I reject is the Old Earth and Evolutionist interpretive schemes.

By rejecting old earth and evolution you are rejecting all geology and all biology because they both require a central theory to hold them together. Remove them and all you have is a list of parts.

But additionally, you reject astronomy, molecular biology, genetics, embriology, radio science, dendrology and any number of other intererelated disciplines. You have absolutely no idea of the quantity and depth of research that lies behind all of these sciences. Because you can sit at your desk inventing stories that don't have to be supported by evidence or fit with other science and because you've had no training in any of them you're utterly clueless about what supports real science.

If you enter the term 'evolutionary theory' into google scholar you get 2.63 million technical, peer reviewed papers. That's just the tip of it. For each paper you can follow their references to source and study the primary data yourself. Science isn't done by just thinking about stuff and making up stories.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 10:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:57 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26797
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 123 (820392)
09-20-2017 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Tangle
09-20-2017 3:04 AM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
I ought to know if I reject those other sciences and I know I don't.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 3:04 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 4:17 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5267
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 114 of 123 (820397)
09-20-2017 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
09-20-2017 3:57 AM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith writes:

I ought to know if I reject those other sciences

Yes, you really ought to.

The fact that you don't think that you reject, say, radio dating, but simply say that it 'has to be wrong' ought to tell something about how you rationalise these things.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26797
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 115 of 123 (820398)
09-20-2017 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Tangle
09-20-2017 4:17 AM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
I know I reject radiometric dating, what does that have to do with your overall statement that I reject whole sciences when I know I don't?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 4:17 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 4:44 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5267
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 116 of 123 (820400)
09-20-2017 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
09-20-2017 4:19 AM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith writes:

I know I reject radiometric dating, what does that have to do with your overall statement that I reject whole sciences when I know I don't?

If you reject the process of evolution and instead believe that species were created whole, you reject biology, if you claim that billion year old rocks are 4,000 years old you reject geology. If you believe that the stars are not billions of light years away then you reject astronomy......I could go on.

You think you're picking and choosing between independent facts, you don't understand that all the sciences support each other, you can't reject one part without rejecting the whole. By claiming that the earth is 6,000 years old you reject all science and all its core principles and methodologies.

You're essentially a mediaeval woman out of your time.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:19 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:54 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26797
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 117 of 123 (820402)
09-20-2017 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Tangle
09-20-2017 4:44 AM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
If you reject the process of evolution and instead believe that species were created whole, you reject biology, if you claim that billion year old rocks are 4,000 years old you reject geology. If you believe that the stars are not billions of light years away then you reject astronomy......I could go on.
You think you're picking and choosing between independent facts, you don't understand that all the sciences support each other, you can't reject one part without rejecting the whole. By claiming that the earth is 6,000 years old you reject all science and all its core principles and methodologies.

You can't define for me what I believe. I believe in everything to do with the sciences that can be replicated and tested and that is in fact most of the content of most of the sciences.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 4:44 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 5:26 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5267
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 118 of 123 (820404)
09-20-2017 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
09-20-2017 4:54 AM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith writes:

You can't define for me what I believe. I believe in everything to do with the sciences that can be replicated and tested and that is in fact most of the content of most of the sciences.

I'm not defining what you believe, that would be an almighty and depressing task, I'm informing you of what you, yourself, reject, which turns out to be most of all science.

Science is not religion, you can't pick and choose the bits you prefer - they all hang together and support each other. A belief in a 6,000 year old earth destroys all of science plus all of its methodologies.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Edited by Tangle, : Spelin'


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:54 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 5:31 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26797
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 119 of 123 (820405)
09-20-2017 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Tangle
09-20-2017 5:26 AM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
I accept most of science and you can't tell me I don't.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 5:26 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14015
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 120 of 123 (820432)
09-20-2017 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
09-19-2017 10:48 PM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith writes:

I don't reject Geology as such just as I don't reject Biology as such, they both do important work. What I reject is the Old Earth and Evolutionist interpretive schemes.


The Old Earth is not an interpretive scheme. It's an indisputable fact. No other "interpretation" works. You can't reject the conclusion without rejecting the entire process.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 10:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:30 PM ringo has responded

  
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