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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
Faith
Member
Posts: 29586
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 121 of 142 (820435)
09-20-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ringo
09-20-2017 3:17 PM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
I disagree, sorry.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 09-20-2017 3:17 PM ringo has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 15164
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 122 of 142 (820437)
09-20-2017 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
09-20-2017 3:30 PM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith writes:

I disagree, sorry.


You can disagree until the cows come home. Your opinion is worthless.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:30 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 123 of 142 (820443)
09-20-2017 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
09-19-2017 10:48 PM


More cognitive dissonance
I don't reject Geology as such just as I don't reject Biology as such, they both do important work. What I reject is the Old Earth and Evolutionist interpretive schemes.

It's not an interpretive scheme (whatever that is), it's conclusions based on facts.

Facts like tree rings, lake varves, marine varves and ice core layers that demonstrate the factual evidence of an old earth, evidence that should not exist in a YECie world.

They also validate carbon-14 dating to 50,000 years ago, longer than any YECie timeline I am aware of. Without a magic flying carpet flood.

Facts like radioactive isotopes and fossils sorted by time into different layers of the geological record, sorting that is physically impossible for a magic flood to accomplish except by miraculous interventions.

Facts that validate an ancient age for the earth and confirm the accuracy of radiometric dating methods by several independent methods that all come to the same end result.

Facts like mutations adding diversity to breeding populations, and the process of evolution occurring in virtually every living population on earth. Without running out of variations as you blindly and falsely assert.

Science doesn't pick and choose it's evidence, it accepts all of it and then explains it with theories based on the evidence, and make predictions. When those predictions fail the theories are discarded or modified to accommodate the new information. When those predictions happen, the theory is used to make fresh predictions.

This isn't a matter of interpretation: the theories pass or fail based on the results of the predictions.

... What I reject is the Old Earth and Evolutionist interpretive schemes.

What you do is reject the information that is at odds with your strongly held beliefs -- that's cognitive dissonance.

You make up stuff to comply with your strongly held beliefs, and when they get inevitably shot down as fantasy you get mad that people don't understand your point of view -- that too is cognitive dissonance.

... What I reject is the Old Earth and Evolutionist interpretive schemes.

What you reject is reality.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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AlexCaledin
Member (Idle past 100 days)
Posts: 41
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


(1)
Message 124 of 142 (826482)
01-02-2018 2:57 PM


- just found an extremely valuable text for Believers (not for Atheists):
____________

One of Elder Paisios’ spiritual sons recalls, "Elder Paisios always urged us to think positively. Our positive thinking, however, should not be our ultimate aim; eventually our soul must be cleansed from our positive thoughts as well, and be left bare, having as its sole vestment Divine Grace granted to us through Holy Baptism. "This is our aim,’ he used to say, ‘to totally submit our mind to the Grace of God. The only thing Christ is asking from us is our humility. The rest is taken care of by His Grace.
In the beginning, we should willingly try to develop positive thoughts, which will gradually lead us to the perfect good, God, to Whom belongs all glory, honor and worship. On the contrary, to us belongs only the humility of our conceited attitude".
Elder Paisios’ teachings on thoughts and inner watchfulness, drawn from his own profound experience in the spiritual life, are particularly crucial for us who have been formed by modern Western culture. Because he spent so much time listening to people (both monastic and lay) and helping them with their problems, Elder Paisios became acutely aware of the various spiritual diseases afflicting modern Western man. Above all, he recognized — and sought to treat — the most prevalent disease: rationalism. Although the modern rationalist worldview was born in Western Europe during the Enlightenment era, it has progressively been inundating the entire world, including Orthodox lands such as Greece. Therefore, when Elder Paisios speaks to the spiritual malady of rationalism in contemporary Greece, he is also speaking to our spiritual malady in America and the West.
Ultimately, the malady of modern rationalism comes down to one essential ingredient: trusting the conclusions of one’s logical mind. We of the modern West have been raised with an underlying assumption, summed up in the well-known phrase of Rene Descartes at the beginning of the Enlightenment era: "I think, therefore I am." The worldview of modern rationalism, having lost an awareness of the immortal soul in man, leads us to believe that our thoughts are who we are, and, conversely, that we are the sum total of our thoughts. Therefore, we automatically feel that we have to trust our thoughts, to take a stand for them, to defend them as we would our own flesh and blood.
This is the essential fallacy of the modern worldview. It is precisely by placing absolute trust in the formulations of the fallen human mind — rather than in divine revelation — that modern Western man has come to water down or abandon his once-cherished Christian Faith. We Orthodox Christians living in the West must act against this influence by refusing to accord outright trust to our thoughts.
Elder Paisios teaches: "The devil does not hunt after those who are lost; he hunts after those who are aware, those who are close to God. He takes from them trust in God and begins to afflict them with self-assurance, logic, thinking, criticism. Therefore we should not trust our logical minds. Never believe your thoughts.
Live simply and without thinking too much, like a child with his father. Faith without too much thinking works wonders. The logical mind hinders the Grace of God and miracles. Practice patience without judging with the logical mind."
Elsewhere Elder Paisius counseled: "We ought always to be careful and be in constant hesitation about whether things are really as we think. For when someone is constantly occupied with his thoughts and trusts in them, the devil will manage things in such a way that he will make the man evil, even if by nature he was good".
____________

https://www.fatheralexander.org/...r_paisios_mount_athos.htm

- we are rather God's thoughts, not ours! Our thoughts are our childish good/evil inventions, to try playing with our model mind, to judge the soul and "debug" the chosen...

Edited by AlexCaledin, : added 8 words in the end


Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30861
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 125 of 142 (826485)
01-02-2018 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by AlexCaledin
01-02-2018 2:57 PM


Sorry but that is all nothing but word salad of no nutritional value.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 126 of 142 (826486)
01-02-2018 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by AlexCaledin
01-02-2018 2:57 PM


AlexCaledin writes:

just found an extremely valuable text for Believers (not for Atheists)

And what a crazy pile of steaming horse shit it is.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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AlexCaledin
Member (Idle past 100 days)
Posts: 41
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


Message 127 of 142 (826487)
01-02-2018 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
01-02-2018 3:05 PM


my apologies))))
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Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 128 of 142 (826491)
01-02-2018 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by AlexCaledin
01-02-2018 3:36 PM


Prophecy for America
jar always says that, Alex.

Personally I think that Elder Paisos is spot on. And it doesnt look good for America...we trust too much in human wisdom...I agree.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 129 of 142 (826492)
01-02-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Tangle
01-02-2018 3:08 PM


Figures you would say that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 01-02-2018 3:08 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30861
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 130 of 142 (826494)
01-02-2018 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
01-02-2018 4:28 PM


Re: Prophecy for America
Phat writes:

jar always says that, Alex.

Not always; only when utter complete nonsense is posted, crap with absolutely no meaning designed solely to con the rubes.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 131 of 142 (826505)
01-03-2018 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by AlexCaledin
01-02-2018 2:57 PM


Elsewhere Elder Paisius counseled: "We ought always to be careful and be in constant hesitation about whether things are really as we think. For when someone is constantly occupied with his thoughts and trusts in them, the devil will manage things in such a way that he will make the man evil, even if by nature he was good".

And that rather well sums up the evangelical fanatic mind-set: ignore anything that conflicts with your belief for the devil awaits.

How do you know he (satan/god = Loki) hasn't already pranked you?

When you have no means to test "whether things are really as we think" then imagination and wishful thinking and make-believe cannot be distinguished from reality.

That's why presuppositions are dangerous -- they can lead you astray while you gladly follow.

- just found an extremely valuable text for Believers (not for Atheists):

Because atheists will know it is poppycock, while believers will lap it up without even a hint of skepticism?

Another good example of the type of false thinking detailed in Message 1 (did you read it?)

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by AlexCaledin, posted 01-02-2018 2:57 PM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 132 of 142 (826508)
01-03-2018 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by RAZD
01-03-2018 9:01 AM


How Can An Orthodox Guy be a Con?
I'll admit that I accepted it rather easily because for one thing it confirmed what I have always believed...namely
quote:
It is precisely by placing absolute trust in the formulations of the fallen human mind — rather than in divine revelation — that modern Western man has come to water down or abandon his once-cherished Christian Faith. We Orthodox Christians living in the West must act against this influence by refusing to accord outright trust to our thoughts.
In addition, I figured that since this guy was an Orthodox Christian he was not a flim-flam man like the televangelists in America.

I always question my thoughts. Granted I use logic, reason, and (somewhat) reality, and I am not as ready to blame satan as i used to be...I realize that much of my faulty thinking is my own internal bias...but I am not as skeptical of all religious dogma as atheists are.(and jar)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2018 9:01 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 01-03-2018 10:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 137 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2018 2:05 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 133 of 142 (826509)
01-03-2018 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by RAZD
01-03-2018 9:01 AM


Message One False Thinking
Is this what you saw in message 1?
quote:
What seems obvious when reading the productions of both groups is that they are largely uninterested in the questions they are ostensibly addressing. What they are interested in is their predetermined answer: they want to get to goddidit as quickly as possible, riding roughshod over facts and reason to get there --- because a solution involving God implies that he exists, and proving his existence is all that really interests them.

I'll admit that you guys have a point.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2018 9:01 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 31 days)
Posts: 4617
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 134 of 142 (826512)
01-03-2018 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
08-21-2016 1:35 PM


DrA writes:

For those who haven't encountered them, presupositionalists are the creationists of philosophy. What seems obvious when reading the productions of both groups is that they are largely uninterested in the questions they are ostensibly addressing. What they are interested in is their predetemined answer: they want to get to goddidit as quickly as possible, riding roughshod over facts and reason to get there

The problem with this argument is that it presumes you have telepathy. Notice you assert (as hearsay) what the wishes are, of certain people, simply because you believe them to be. Such as, "what they are interested in".

My question to arrogant atheists is the same one I usually ask, where do you get this remarkable telepathic ability to know my motives? Is it sufficient for you to simply state something negative, state what our motives are, and then think because you state those are our motives, they really are? I am not convinced that your cynical conclusion is anything more than your own bias against creationists in the guise of reason but the actuality is sophistry.

Do you think it is a clever argument you have created, if you assert we have motive X. No, what you have is a begging-the-question fallacy asserted in a priggish and sneering way.

Moreover it seems to be a common habit of yours to generalise. "They are largely uninterested". This is to basically go for the usual, "your group is bad, they all have trait P, our group doesn't and we're all fantastic."

Typical Dr A, he always has to argue the person rather than the arguments.

DrA writes:

What they are interested in is their predetemined answer: they want to get to goddidit as quickly as possible, riding roughshod over facts and reason to get there --- because a solution involving God implies that he exists, and proving his existence is all that really interests them.

Not really, no. The overt evidence for a Creator is a creation, which is tautologous like the evidence things can fly is a successful plane flight. So there is no escaping we have reasons to believe. That you think you have hijacked God's creation by giving your evolution-story the glory, won't change sound logical notation.

When we see colour, symmetry, immense design to a level that makes the jaw drop in many instances then we have plenty of reasons to believe because that is the correct evidence. And by now the complaints about that evidence are well known to be false arguments, such as the vas deferens, recurrent laryngeal nerve, position of the photo receptors of nerve net in the eye, choking, etc....it's all been done and anatomists can tell us that there is no incorrect design, only atheists pretending they understand engineering and falling on their faces, like when Dawkins got his anatomy mixed up, like a blundering oaf.

You also seem to think that facts and reason would preclude a Creator almost as though facts and reason are the antithesis to God existing. This is a typical mistake atheists/evolutionists make, that they seem to belief all things reason and factual, instantly support, "not God".

One thing that has to be considered for example, is that where there is now a natural explanation where there was a supernatural one because of a GOTG fallacy, this doesn't mean that because the natural one supersedes it that therefore the natural answer is immediately a-theist. In fact if God never claimed for example, to physically and literally create lightning, to begin with but rather created a universe with natural laws, then if that nature only came about because God created it, then everything, "nature" would be put in the "theist" box, not outside of it.

Now I am certainly open to contrary evidence to those things which you argue can occur naturally. If there really is some science showing how life can come about naturally for example rather than the 100% induction of experiments which support that life only seems to be able to come from life, naturally, then fine, show the strong scientific data to support it. Meanwhile as a true rationalist, I take correct qualification of evidence, and that means miraculous intelligent design is OVER-QUALIFIED, and the circumstantial case for evolution and it's various story-tellings, don't over-turn such total evidence of the miraculous. To pretend to myself butterflies and trees and people aren't evidence of a Creator is basically your request, when we get past the scientific-varnish, the guise of scientific legitimacy, where ultimately there is only a story for materialists.


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 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-21-2016 1:35 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 30861
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 135 of 142 (826514)
01-03-2018 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
01-03-2018 9:21 AM


Re: How Can An Orthodox Guy be a Con?
But what you quoted is really just another example of the utter dishonesty that is the basis of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

The truth is that the only people placing absolute trust in the formulations of the fallen human mind are the inerrant Biblical Christians. Anyone so dishonest as to actually make the assertion you quoted should only be met by loud laughter and then anyone that did not check their brain at the door getting up and walking out.

Not only is a total lie, it is also really, really stupid and can only be tolerated by folk who decide to believe utter nonsense.

Look at it again but this time actually read it and see the obvious absurdities presented.

quote:
It is precisely by placing absolute trust in the formulations of the fallen human mind — rather than in divine revelation — that modern Western man has come to water down or abandon his once-cherished Christian Faith. We Orthodox Christians living in the West must act against this influence by refusing to accord outright trust to our thoughts.

It is conmen like say stupid stuff like that that trust their own thoughts. The man is simply such an accomplished liar that he can as easily lie to himself as to any audience.

Far from refusing to trust his thoughts he even subjugates reality to his thoughts.

Does he realize he is simply lying? Hopefully not. That does not change the fact that all of his belief systems are founded on dishonesty.

The skeptic on the other hand starts from the basic premise that the formulations of their minds are not to be trusted unless and until they can be verified against reality and then to acknowledge that any such trust is only tentative.

That is why so many Orthodox guys are cons, the very basic assumption of orthodoxy assures that it must be a false position.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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