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Author Topic:   On the origin of life
jar
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Posts: 28466
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(4)
Message 61 of 70 (791003)
09-09-2016 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Pressie
09-09-2016 7:52 AM


Re: The Big Lie
Miracle Max: He probably owes you money huh? I'll ask him.
Inigo Montoya: He's dead. He can't talk.
Miracle Max: Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.
Inigo Montoya: What's that?
Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Pressie, posted 09-09-2016 7:52 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 24015
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 62 of 70 (791010)
09-09-2016 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Pressie
09-09-2016 7:52 AM


Re: The Big Lie
It's the Bible that dictates how the word "die" is used. Other uses I didn't mention are Jesus' telling us we must "die to self," and "die to sin." And "put to death the sins of the body" is another phrase found in the Bible. There are probably others but I used up most of them in the earlier post.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Pressie, posted 09-09-2016 7:52 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Pressie, posted 09-09-2016 8:53 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 64 by Pressie, posted 09-09-2016 9:07 AM Faith has responded
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 09-09-2016 12:02 PM Faith has responded

    
Pressie
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Posts: 1480
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 63 of 70 (791014)
09-09-2016 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
09-09-2016 8:39 AM


Re: The Big Lie
Yeah, sure Faith.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 8:39 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1480
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 64 of 70 (791019)
09-09-2016 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
09-09-2016 8:39 AM


Re: The Big Lie
Faith writes:

It's the Bible that dictates how the word "die" is used.

Nope. Carcasses rotting away or being eaten by lions or vultures or hyenas would be a lot more reliable way of defining the word 'die'. They're dead. Gone.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 8:39 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 9:13 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Faith
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Posts: 24015
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 65 of 70 (791021)
09-09-2016 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Pressie
09-09-2016 9:07 AM


Re: The Big Lie
Oh dear, I'm getting to the point of tearing out my hair again, although I'd much prefer to tear out hair from some other heads that are determined to make hash out of reasonable arguments.

Pressie, the context is what the Bible says; therefore the Bible defines how the word is being used.

But since you are going to go on and say something even more ridiculous this is my last post on the subject here.

How about you go back to the YEC-OEC thread and grapple with the fact that so many there think it possible to find oil without any knowledge of ancient dating.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 12826
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 66 of 70 (791039)
09-09-2016 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
09-09-2016 8:39 AM


Re: The Big Lie
Faith writes:

It's the Bible that dictates how the word "die" is used.


You're partly correct. But you can't use (your misinterpretation of) the New Testament to back up (your misinterpretation of) the Old Testament. Different languages + different times = different context.

Do you have any examples of "spiritual death" in the Old Testament?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 8:39 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 8:18 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24015
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 67 of 70 (791231)
09-13-2016 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
09-09-2016 12:02 PM


Re: The Big Lie
Do you have any examples of "spiritual death" in the Old Testament?

As I already said, I think the quintessential example of spiritual death is Adam and Eve's hiding from God (even in sin one should seek God in contrition for forgiveness). But there is nobody in the OT who doesn't exhibit spiritual death, except God Himself and the preincarnate Jesus (abe: and God's own holy angels of course; and I guess there are some holy men who could be mentioned, such as Daniel in particular who was fallen too of course but acted with amazing wisdom throughout his life. And Joseph. Others acted with wisdom but acknowledged their errors so I don't include them even though that too is great wisdom/abe).

Spiritual death is essentially sinfulness, disobedience of God, being out of touch with God, living for self instead of for God and for others, which is true of all of us. All of us suffer from spiritual death in this life, even those who have been regenerated by faith in Christ. We won't be free of it until we are with Him for eternity.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 09-09-2016 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-13-2016 12:06 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 69 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-13-2016 1:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12826
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 68 of 70 (791250)
09-13-2016 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
09-13-2016 8:18 AM


Re: The Big Lie
Faith writes:

As I already said, I think the quintessential example of spiritual death is Adam and Eve's hiding from God (even in sin one should seek God in contrition for forgiveness).


Oh come on. That's egregious, even for you. You can't use one example to back itself up.

Faith writes:

But there is nobody in the OT who doesn't exhibit spiritual death....


I'm asking for examples where the Bible talks about "spiritual death", not just where you read spiritual death into it.

Faith writes:

... Daniel in particular who was fallen too of course but acted with amazing wisdom throughout his life. And Joseph.


You're shooting yourself in the foot. Neither of those examples sounds spiritually dead. Spiritually impaired, maybe, at times, but not dead. God didn't tell Adam and Eve that they would surely suffer from lapses of judgement. He said they'd die.

Faith writes:

Spiritual death is essentially sinfulness, disobedience of God, being out of touch with God, living for self instead of for God and for others, which is true of all of us.


So "spiritual death" is just being human.

You keep ignoring the fact that God Himself said that Adam and Eve had become MORE LIKE HIM, not less.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 8:18 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11185
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 69 of 70 (791257)
09-13-2016 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
09-13-2016 8:18 AM


Re: The Big Lie
As I already said, I think the quintessential example of spiritual death is Adam and Eve's hiding from God (even in sin one should seek God in contrition for forgiveness).

That doesn't add up within the context of the story.

Immediately after they ate the fruit, their eyes were opened up and they realized they were naked. They hid from God because they were afraid He'd see them naked.

quote:
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.


Now, if we want to consider that when the Lord said that they would die, that He was talking about something other than regular ol' death, it would seen that the results imparted unto them after they ate the fruit would be what it was to "die":

quote:
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


Verse 17 explicitly says that because you ate the fruit, this is what is going to happen to you.

Now, you said everything started out perfect, and nothing would die until they disobeyed the Lord.

If that is true, why is there even a tree of life?

quote:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

If they were going to live forever anyways, why does it talk about the tree of life making them live forever?

Also, the result of eating the fruit was that they knew good and evil.

If the Lord was right and they died the day they ate the fruit, then it must mean their innocence died. They learned of good and evil and become like one of the gods.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 8:18 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 70 of 70 (791280)
09-13-2016 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
09-09-2016 9:13 AM


Re: The Big Lie
Faith writes:

Pressie, the context is what the Bible says; therefore the Bible defines how the word is being used.

The Bible was written, transcribed, translated, and interpreted by fallen humans, so it can't be trusted anyway according to your own standards.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 9:13 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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