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Author Topic:   Glenn Morton's Evidence Examined
Faith
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Posts: 25317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 361 of 427 (791616)
09-18-2016 5:33 PM


I don't know if HBD read the early part of the thread, but he doesn't seem to have taken into account that a number of posters agreed that it is possible to find oil without using the dating methods or assumptions of OE Geology, simply knowing the relative dates of the rocks in relation to one another, and the morphology of the rocks at a given location. While agreeing with this much the six who said this also affirmed that the OE dates are necessary to understanding how the order of the rocks occurred. My argument has been that nobody has shown any relevance to understanding how the rocks formed or arrived at the recognizable order. HBD seems to be saying that it is important but he too hasn't said why or how.
Replies to this message:
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Pressie
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Posts: 1621
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 362 of 427 (791626)
09-19-2016 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Faith
09-16-2016 7:35 PM


Re: OE model vs YEC model
This one is funny:

Faith writes:

I don't know what characteristics of the rock would be involved in identifying it as Carboniferous,....

Me neither. Maybe you read too much creationist stuff to know what's going on in geology?

Faith writes:

it's just that Geologists are always talking about this or that layer as being formed in a shallow sea or a lake and so on and so forth.

I'm not too sure why you mention this.

Some "layers" are formed by volcanic action in Hawaii. Some "layers" are formed by volcanic action in the Great Rift Valley.

Some "layers" are formed on deltas emptying in the Mediterranean. Some "layers" are formed on deltas emptying in Lake Victoria.

Some "layers" are formed in the deepest parts of lakes. Some "layers" are formed in the shallowest parts of lakes.

Some "layers" are formed at MOR's. Some "layers" are formed on beaches.

Some "layers" are formed in the Sahara. Some "layers" are formed on Antarctica due to glaciers. Some "layers" are formed on Antarctica due to thick ice covers.

Some "layers" are formed in the Kalahari desert due to wind. Some layers are formed in the Kalahari desert due to rivers evaporating.

Some "layers" are formed due to floods when rains fall on the highest peaks of the Drakensberg and the mountains get eroded.

The Himalayas are growing at around 5 mm a year.

All of these happening at the same time.

In geology we can distinguish between those settings. The method is quite simple. The present is the key to the past.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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jar
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Posts: 29036
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 363 of 427 (791633)
09-19-2016 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by Faith
09-18-2016 5:33 PM


Faith writes:

I don't know if HBD read the early part of the thread, but he doesn't seem to have taken into account that a number of posters agreed that it is possible to find oil without using the dating methods or assumptions of OE Geology, simply knowing the relative dates of the rocks in relation to one another, and the morphology of the rocks at a given location.

That's not quite what folk said.

For example the original Saudi oil fields were found using Young Earth methods; they were drilling for water and struck oil. The great Pennsylvania oil fields were also found using Young Earth methods, folk noticed the oil seeping up from underground.

So sure, even a blind pig might find an acorn.

But what is the Young Earth method of predicting where oil will be found or where the conditions are right for oil accumulation?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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NoNukes
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Posts: 9651
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 364 of 427 (791635)
09-19-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by Faith
09-18-2016 5:33 PM


I don't know if HBD read the early part of the thread, but he doesn't seem to have taken into account that a number of posters agreed that it is possible to find oil without using the dating methods or assumptions of OE Geology, simply knowing the relative dates of the rocks in relation to one another

Nobody said anything like this other than you. None of us who agreed that a YEC could find oil said diddly squat about relative ages. My personal comment was that a YEC might find oil because a real geologist had already figured out some formations that might generate oil, and a YEC could cookbook his way into finding oil at least some of the time. I highly doubt that the YEC would be highly effective by ignoring real world evidence.

And of course we have evidence of YEC folks going off on multi-million dollar boon doggles in which they waste other YECs money trying to find oil "Biblically". YEC methods do not work. Because there is no reliable YEC model for how oil and gas actually formed in the first place, unscientific pseudo history has zero predictive power. You might just as well use a dowsing rod.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 365 of 427 (791637)
09-19-2016 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by NoNukes
09-19-2016 11:46 AM


Nobody said anything like this other than you. None of us who agreed that a YEC could find oil said diddly squat about relative ages.

Perhaps I have misunderstood what was said, then, but please correct. Nobody objected (among those who seemed to agree anyway) when I put it this way back in
Message 28

Interesting that the thread has a lot of people agreeing that it's possible for YECs to find oil through relative dating and morphology of the rocks.

Is there a difference I'm overlooking?

What you said in Message 5 was this:

I agree to some extent that what geologist know can be condensed into a set of rule that would allow even a YEC person to find oil.

I took the "set of rules" to include the relative dating and morphology of the rocks which were the two criteria cited from the beginning about how a YEC could find oil.

I expected more of an objection to how I characterized the affirmation of OE assumptions despite this acknowledgement of being able to find oil without them, because I didn't remember exactly what was said.

Perhaps someone can explain all this?

[qs]

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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ringo
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Posts: 13197
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 366 of 427 (791639)
09-19-2016 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Faith
09-19-2016 12:45 PM


Faith writes:

Is there a difference I'm overlooking?


YECs can only find oil by using the instructions given by real geologists. That's like you or me finding information by using instructions given by Google; it doesn't mean we could write the Google software.
This message is a reply to:
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 Message 367 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 2:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 367 of 427 (791640)
09-19-2016 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by ringo
09-19-2016 1:09 PM


YECs can only find oil by using the instructions given by real geologists. That's like you or me finding information by using instructions given by Google; it doesn't mean we could write the Google software.

The information about the order of the strata and the fossils doesn't require OE theory, nor does knowledge of the morphology of the rocks, meaning how the rocks are situated underground. I couldn't find oil because I'm not a geologist, but to be a geologist and study the rocks is all it takes to learn what's necessary to finding oil, and that doesn't involve OE theory.

I'm still waiting for someone to prove that OE theory is necessary to finding oil. Nobody has. That's because in the end only the physical situation of the rocks themselves is needed.


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 Message 366 by ringo, posted 09-19-2016 1:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9651
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 368 of 427 (791642)
09-19-2016 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Faith
09-19-2016 2:03 PM


The information about the order of the strata and the fossils doesn't require OE theory, nor does knowledge of the morphology of the rocks, meaning how the rocks are situated underground.

Why would certain geological configurations be associated with oil? Real geologists have a working model based partially on the ages of rocks and that allows them to make that call. Faux geologists can simply take what geologists have figured out using science and look for the same thing.

I'm still waiting for someone to prove that OE theory is necessary to finding oil.

You have not even suggested how a YEC would know where to look before a real geologists tells him. That's the point everyone here is making. It is the same one that ringo makes. If you don't know how this would work then you are just speculating.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 2:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 2:45 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 369 of 427 (791643)
09-19-2016 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by NoNukes
09-19-2016 2:35 PM


Well, I see no reason whatever to suppose that the dating of the rocks does anything more than locate them physically, and although it is asserted that the dates are used in the location of oil, so far nothing has been said to show that there is any more to it than physical location. I don't doubt that the dating is used, what I doubt is that it accomplishes anything more than location of the rocks which don't need dating to locate them.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by vimesey, posted 09-19-2016 3:09 PM Faith has responded
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 Message 374 by jar, posted 09-19-2016 3:51 PM Faith has responded

    
vimesey
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Posts: 868
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 370 of 427 (791645)
09-19-2016 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Faith
09-19-2016 2:45 PM


Hi Faith.

I think the thing that people are saying here, is that standard geology can infer the likelihood of the location of oil bearing strata, before they are physically located. And it does so using the scientific method.

The question posed is how YEC thinking can infer the likelihood of the location of the oil bearing strata, before they are physically located.

It's true that dating isn't needed to locate the rocks - but old earth dating makes it very likely that you will locate them. Our position is that YEC thinking doesn't do the same.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9651
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 371 of 427 (791646)
09-19-2016 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Faith
09-19-2016 2:45 PM


fdsafsd

Edited by NoNukes, : Pointless.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 2:45 PM Faith has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 25317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 372 of 427 (791647)
09-19-2016 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by vimesey
09-19-2016 3:09 PM


Please forgive if I have to say that makes absolutely not one iota of sense to me.
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 373 of 427 (791648)
09-19-2016 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by NoNukes
09-19-2016 3:14 PM


Translation required.
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jar
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Posts: 29036
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 374 of 427 (791649)
09-19-2016 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Faith
09-19-2016 2:45 PM


Faith provides the answer, again.
Faith writes:

Well, I see no reason whatever to suppose that the dating of the rocks does anything more than locate them physically, and although it is asserted that the dates are used in the location of oil, so far nothing has been said to show that there is any more to it than physical location. I don't doubt that the dating is used, what I doubt is that it accomplishes anything more than location of the rocks which don't need dating to locate them.

Once again Faith supports the conventional theory over her own fantasy.

Yes Faith, what dating does help locate the rocks and to efficiently locate the rocks it helps to know where to look; or you can use the Young Earth methods of looking for oil seeps or keep drilling for water until you hit oil.

Young Earth is simply an absurd, worthless, refuted, abandoned and rejected concept.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
Member
Posts: 25317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 375 of 427 (791650)
09-19-2016 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by jar
09-19-2016 3:51 PM


As usual, no explanation offered
Faith, what dating does help locate the rocks and to efficiently locate the rocks it helps to know where to look;

That's a pretty garbled statement but I have to suppose you're trying to say that dating does help to locate the rocks, and yet, interestingly, as usual, you say nothing about how it helps, as nobody else has either. If it is really helpful, really necessary, somebody ought to be able to say how it's helpful. So far nada.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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