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Coyote
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Posts: 5863
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 391 of 427 (791671)
09-19-2016 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by Faith
09-19-2016 6:57 PM


Re: First to find new field?
EXPLAINING the fossil order is what is not necessary; KNOWING the fossil order is something else and YECs who've studied geology know it as well as you do.

As has been posted here over and over, science in general and scientific theories in particular explain things. That is what science does!

In this case, science explains the fossil order by means of a theory that has withstood many challenges, accounts for all of the relevant data, and is not contradicted by any relevant data.

YEC "science" and flood geology have not withstood challenges (except in the minds of true believers), cannot account for all of the relevant data, and have to simply ignore contrary data.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 6:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:19 PM Coyote has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 25308
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 392 of 427 (791673)
09-19-2016 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Coyote
09-19-2016 7:06 PM


Re: First to find new field?
Having an explanation is of no value whatever if it's the wrong explanation.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Coyote, posted 09-19-2016 7:06 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by edge, posted 09-19-2016 7:22 PM Faith has responded
 Message 394 by jar, posted 09-19-2016 7:25 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 401 by Coyote, posted 09-19-2016 8:39 PM Faith has responded
 Message 409 by Admin, posted 09-20-2016 9:25 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
edge
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Posts: 3885
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 393 of 427 (791674)
09-19-2016 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Faith
09-19-2016 7:19 PM


Re: First to find new field?
Having an explanation is of no value whatever if it's the wrong explanation.

Which you have not shown to be the case.

Besides, this explanation works.

If you come up with something better we will go to the business who use the geological explanation and make a fortune.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:19 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:28 PM edge has responded

  
jar
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Posts: 29032
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 394 of 427 (791677)
09-19-2016 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Faith
09-19-2016 7:19 PM


Re: First to find new field?
Faith writes:

Having an explanation is of no value whatever if it's the wrong explanation.

Exactly; that is why Young Earth is worthless and useless and has been thrown away by all scientists for hundreds of years. It's a wrong explanation, false, irrelevant.

So as asked back in Message 384:

"So you accept relative dating, is that correct?"


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 25308
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 395 of 427 (791679)
09-19-2016 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by edge
09-19-2016 7:22 PM


Re: First to find new field?
Besides, this explanation works.

So you and others keep saying, but so far not a shred of evidence that it works to find oil.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by edge, posted 09-19-2016 7:22 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by edge, posted 09-19-2016 7:43 PM Faith has responded
 Message 410 by Admin, posted 09-20-2016 9:32 AM Faith has not yet responded
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nwr
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Posts: 5526
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 396 of 427 (791681)
09-19-2016 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by Faith
09-19-2016 3:29 PM


Translation required.

I think he changed his mind after posting, so edited it to a meaningless string.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 3:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3885
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 397 of 427 (791683)
09-19-2016 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Faith
09-19-2016 7:28 PM


Re: First to find new field?
So you and others keep saying, but so far not a shred of evidence that it works to find oil.

You should talk to the oil companies then. I'm sure they'd agree with you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:51 PM edge has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25308
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 398 of 427 (791684)
09-19-2016 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by edge
09-19-2016 7:43 PM


Re: First to find new field?
kbertsche said otherwise. You didn't answer him either. Just passing the question off to the oil companies is avoiding the question. Why can't you answer it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by edge, posted 09-19-2016 7:43 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12516
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 399 of 427 (791687)
09-19-2016 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by jar
09-19-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Faith provides the answer, again.
jar writes:

Young Earth is simply an absurd, worthless, refuted, abandoned and rejected concept.

Evidence and argument, please, not name-calling and trying to pick fights.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by jar, posted 09-19-2016 3:51 PM jar has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
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Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 400 of 427 (791689)
09-19-2016 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by kbertsche
09-19-2016 4:46 PM


it has been claimed by some in this thread that it is necessary to know the geologic history of a site in order to find oil. This is not true. If one is near a known large oil field, all that is needed is good interpretation of seismic surveys to identify faults, salt domes, and other features that might have trapped a significant amount of oil. (and most oil exploration today is done near already-known oil fields.)

Where did you say anything about the use of relative ages here? Faith's claim is that you can use relative ages in place of absolute ages and get the same results that other geologist use.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
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Posts: 5863
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 401 of 427 (791691)
09-19-2016 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Faith
09-19-2016 7:19 PM


Re: First to find new field?
Having an explanation is of no value whatever if it's the wrong explanation.

Of course that is true.

Science relies on data, evidence, logic, and the scientific method as well as constant attempts to disprove hypotheses and theories. For example, every new fossil that is found is a test of a number of theories.

Creation "science" relies on scripture and dogma, rather than data, evidence, and logic, and abhors the scientific method--thus it is the exact opposite of real science.

Those who rely on creation "science" often see real science as having the wrong explanation, but that is because they rely on belief instead of evidence. That has been explained to us here on several occasions.

Perhaps the solution is for each side to be more explicit what underlies their claims. Science can say "our evidence and theories show this...," while creationists can say, "scripture leads me to believe this... ."

As a friend noted,

Preachers are always complaining that "scientists are playing God," but all too often, their confusion is the result of preachers playing scientist.

--The Sensuous Curmudgeon


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:19 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 9:57 PM Coyote has responded
 Message 411 by Admin, posted 09-20-2016 9:35 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25308
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 402 of 427 (791695)
09-19-2016 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by NoNukes
09-19-2016 8:29 PM


first statement relative age all that's needed
NN to kbertsche writes:

Where did you say anything about the use of relative ages here? Faith's claim is that you can use relative ages in place of absolute ages and get the same results that other geologist use.

He said it HERE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2016 8:29 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25308
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 403 of 427 (791696)
09-19-2016 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by Coyote
09-19-2016 8:39 PM


Facts vs Beliefs again
Creation "science" relies on scripture and dogma, rather than data, evidence, and logic, and abhors the scientific method--thus it is the exact opposite of real science.

Those who rely on creation "science" often see real science as having the wrong explanation, but that is because they rely on belief instead of evidence. That has been explained to us here on several occasions.

Perhaps the solution is for each side to be more explicit what underlies their claims. Science can say "our evidence and theories show this...," while creationists can say, "scripture leads me to believe this... ."

Coyote, I know you believe this, in fact you believe it so relentlessly one can't insert a contrary thought between your statements of it. But you are not right. Yes the FOUNDATION of YEC attempts to explain the physical world IS the scripture, but you miss the main arguments YECs make, that make NO use whatever of scripture but argue completely from the physical facts as they present themselves. I argue for the Flood because scripture tells me there was a Flood and when it was and all that, but HOW I argue for the Flood is based completely on the physical facts I find presented by geology and presented at EvC. I make my case entirely from those facts, I do not use scripture as part of my argument AT ALL.

ABE: Of course if I didn't find physical evidence that validates the Flood I couldn't and wouldn't argue it. What you don't get is that I am sincerely convinced of the Flood BY THE PHYSICAL FACTS. (Not that every hypothesis I come up with about how it all played out is set in concrete, but the overall arguments I'm making are solidly based on my reading of the physical facts and not on scripture.) /abe

MOST of my arguments haven't even touched on scripture at all, and yet you continue to claim that all I ever do is argue from scripture.

No, I am not arguing that the OE explanation is wrong based on my belief in scripture. Not on this thread anyway. I really am not.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Coyote, posted 09-19-2016 8:39 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Coyote, posted 09-19-2016 10:06 PM Faith has responded
 Message 415 by Taq, posted 09-20-2016 12:42 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 416 by edge, posted 09-22-2016 12:33 PM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5863
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 404 of 427 (791697)
09-19-2016 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Faith
09-19-2016 9:57 PM


Re: Facts vs Beliefs again
Yes the FOUNDATION of YEC attempts to explain the physical world IS the scripture, but you miss the main arguments YECs make, that make NO use whatever of scripture but argue completely from the physical facts as they present themselves.

Unfortunately that's not the case.

YECs attempt to explain the physical world in terms of scripture, but the facts don't support that explanation. That leads to enormous stretches of interpretation, misinterpretation of facts, ignoring facts that run contrary to belief, in some cases making up facts, quote mining, and other problems.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 9:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 10:09 PM Coyote has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25308
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 405 of 427 (791698)
09-19-2016 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Coyote
09-19-2016 10:06 PM


Re: Facts vs Beliefs again
No it IS the case. While you were writing your post I added this to mine so I'll copy it here:

ABE: Of course if I didn't find physical evidence that validates the Flood I couldn't and wouldn't argue it. What you don't get is that I am sincerely convinced of the Flood BY THE PHYSICAL FACTS. (Not that every hypothesis I come up with about how it all played out is set in concrete, but the overall arguments I'm making are solidly based on my reading of the physical facts and not on scripture.) /ab

You made a lot of accusations in that post. Please support even one of them from anything I've argued.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Coyote, posted 09-19-2016 10:06 PM Coyote has responded

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