The 2016 United States Presidential Election

Yes, same guy and yes I object to his stance on abortion. It's Chapter Two that gives all the evidence of the RCC engineering illegal immigration. It's all facts. Please read it.

I have no idea what Trump could do to completely turn me away from him. It would most likely be in the Leftist direction though, but I don't know. For all I know he could yet do something I'd take as a huge betrayal, but that's a worry based on the general atmosphere in the country today and I don't have a specific expectation of what he might do. Both parties have been untrustworthy, but Trump is saying something I haven't heard in this country for a long long time ... maybe ever, something we've needed desperately to hear. He says things straight out that we've been dying to hear, those of us who voted for him. Whether he will or can do it all I don't know at this point. When George Bush said Islam is a religion of peace that was the moment I turned from him. There were other things but that was the main point for me. If there is a similar point that would turn me away from Trump I'll have to wait and see. What interests me about Trump is what I said are the reasons I support him. His policies, his promises for America. I think most of your speculations are just silly. Prison for abortions? Give me a break.A few random people against Obama? What are you referring to?It was EvC in general I was addressing as uninterested in the truth.I only recently started listening to Alex jones, since election day.I used to make a bigger effort to support my points than I do now. It's not worth it here. If I'm going to be dismissed anyway what's the point?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yeah I get why you support him. I heard what he was saying too, and it sounded like an amoral psychopath pandering to the far right. I was just wondering if he there was anything TOO right wing he could say or do. Anything he has been accused off, that if true, would turn you off him. I'd prefer to agree with Abdolkarim Soroush than ISIS. Absurd? Yes? Unrealistic? Unfortunately not. Oklahoma's legislature voted to pass a bill that could send doctors to prison for up to three years and only isn't the law because the governor vetoed it (but only because it was too vaguely written, not because it was intrinsically insane).Given Trump aired the notion that women should receive some form of punishment, and given the 'abortion is murder / the worst holocaust ever' arguments, prison sentences seem reasonable. If abortion is murder, why the hell wouldn't we send the perpetrators to prison? Killing babies is basically the worst kind of murder isn't it? Life sentences or death penalties all around, would seem to be the only reasonable conclusion to the right-wing rhetoric, if they were sincere - which I think we agree they are not.If Trump were to persuade the legislature and the judicial branch to punish women or doctors, would that be too far, as silly as it may be to think about it.IF he had Hilary Clinton arrested?
If his tax returns show business dealings which are significantly against American interests?Anything other than 'shifting towards the left'? The birther nonsense you bought springs to mind.
I seem to remember Conservatives, don't know if you were among them, harping on about Ayers for a while. And of course any tenuous link anyone claims regarding Soros. It was with me you were discussing the subject. I was included as you decided to not give details because there was 'no point' for 'for people who don't care about the truth.'. If I wasn't included, then I'd like to hear more detail. I'm not interested in destroying or dismissing your arguments. I may make counterpoints, that is the theme of a debate forum, but I am interested to hear your thoughts. I've seen some of his shows over the years, he's kind of 'prone to exaggeration'. The point is that you alluded to some information that was on his show, and I ended up listening to several hours of his stuff to try and find what you were talking about. I then presented the video and a rough transcript, to support your argument. I'd hope at some point I'd earn some quality time of yours in return. What's the point of making the points if you aren't going to bother to explain how you know your points are correct?Bring your works into the light, Faith,

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that {your} deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

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do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

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after all your knowledge is rich and you should therefore be

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ready to distribute, willing to communicate

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Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

You were able to vet what he says, how exactly? The same way you vetted that anti-vaccine movie you insisted we watch?

Yes. Though I keep finding listening to and reading his speeches for content to be rather frustrating. -- I just cannot find much content. It appears as if he is shotgunning lots of different stuff out there and waiting to see what sticks to the wall (apologies for that mixed metaphor of buckshot and linguine).And that shotgun approach did work. During the campaign, I heard several of his supporters state that they didn't agree with him on several points, but they did agree with him on one or two things and it was that agreement that sold them. If you thought about it honestly and reflected upon it, I'm sure that you will find that you disagree with him on a number of points (eg, religion -- "Two Corinthians", grabbing you by the pu**y) but that agreement on a few other points were enough for you.Interestingly, on NPR I heard one woman explain why she supported him. She was appalled by all the things that he was saying, but when she was at a rally she had a chance to talk with him and air her concerns. He listened to her, smiled, and told her to not worry because he didn't mean any of it. He was just playing to the crowd. And that is what sold her, that he didn't mean any of what he was saying, that he wasn't going to do any of what he was saying he would do.And actually, that is one of the problems we're facing now: we have no idea what Trump will actually do. That is because we have no idea what he actually stands for nor what he actually plans to do nor whether he actually has a plan. He's a professional salesman. He'll promise you everything and anything and will sell you a pig in a poke ¹. He did it to the students at "Trump University." He has done it repeatedly to the contractors who have made the mistake of working for him. He has done it to the people who work for him. He even did it during the campaign to an adviser. Whatever reason do you have to assume that he won't do the exact same thing to you and to the entire nation?Another thing we observed was why the "evangelical vote" cleaved to Trump. He was most definitely not a Christian candidate, both for religious reasons and because he is so morally reprehensible, but they still voted for him because he would nominate the kind of Supreme Court justice that they wanted. So, politics was much more important to them than God and religion and, in effect, they were willing to make a deal with Satan for purely political reasons. I seem to recall that polls on that matter differentiated between nominal and active evangelicals ² and I think that Trump polled better with nominals, but I'm not quite sure.And then there are the "Republicans", none of whom wanted to support Trump, yet all of whom now want to use him for their own nefarious plans. They think that he will enable their plans, but that is not a certainty. This is actually one of the paths for the Downfall of Trump, that the Republican-controlled Congress would seek to impeach him once they realize that they cannot control him. Remember, nobody knows what Trump really intends to do, perhaps not even Trump himself.From the Days of Wooden Ships and Iron Men comes the term "loose cannon." Onboard ship, everything is lashed down. If anything is not lashed down, then it can cause great damage as it moves about on a pitching ship (on a submarine, it's called "angles and dangles"). Of course, the more massive that object is, the more damage it could cause. On the gun deck, every cannon is lashed down. If any cannon is not lashed down, then it becomes a "loose cannon" which does very great damage as it rolls about uncontrolled.For the GOP, for the Nation, for the World, Donald Trump is truly a loose cannon. No, that is indeed what Trump said. Or rather that women who get abortions should be punished.I saw that happen and I saw Trump immediately backpedal in the face of immediate outrage. But I don't think that was the entire story.Rather, I think that Trump was following this kind of logic:

1. Some action is against the law.
2. Somebody commits that action which is against the law.
3. Committing an action against the law has certain punishments assigned to such a violation.
4. If you do the crime, then you must do the time.

I personally think that that was the reasoning going through Trump's head when he advocated punishing the woman who got the abortion. Of course, politically and morally it was the wrong thing to say. Also it assumed that what she was doing was illegal, which is not the case. Basically, I would classify this one as his having blundered into an open pit.But he still did advocate it, misguided as he was. Conspiracy theorist. NPR did a story on him (Radio Conspiracy Theorist Claims Ear Of Trump, Pushes 'Pizzagate' Fictions). White Supremacists cite his site as having "opened their minds" to ideas that led them to their radically racist position.PizzaGate is of interest. Alex Jones repeats the report that a child sex ring was being run from its back room. That story is totally false, yet the owner of that business gets death threats. And on 06 Dec 2016 a gunman from North Carolina armed with a rifle did raid that establishment, pointed his weapon at an employee who fled, and subsequently discharged one or two rounds in that esablishment. And those lies continue to circulate. You personally were so outraged that a bakery open to the general public should need to accommodate the general public, including gay couples. Yet you feel absolutely nothing for a pizza shop where everybody has to FEAR FOR THEIR VERY LIVES because of the bullshit LIES that Alex Jones and ALL OF THE TRUMP-SPHERE spreads?

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Footnote 1:What's a poke? It plays into a story from my father's childhood.When he was about 8 years old, his family moved to Texas in the early 1920's. His mother gave him a grocery list and sent him to the store. When he entered the store, there was this really old woman (about 18) behind the counter and she asked him, "What's urine?" He was embarrassed by such a question, but answered her at which she angrily threw him out of the store. As he sat there crying on the store's front step, a man passing by stopped and asked him what was wrong. He then explained that she was asking him what he wanted.So my father entered the store again and again the "old woman" asked him, "What's your'n?", and he silently handed her his shopping list. When the transaction was completed, he started to gather all the goods in his arms to carry home and she asked him, "Do you want a poke?" "No!," he thought crying to himself. "I've been through enough today! I don't want to get poked too!" But she insisted, saying that whether he wants it or not, he needs a poke and she's going to give it to him. So she came from around the counter carrying a sack into which she placed his purchase and then gave him his groceries in that sack.A poke is a sack.

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Footnote 2:OK, so just what exactly do we call them? I am inclined to call them "Legion", since they are many ... though I suppose some of them will object.Decades ago, I encountered a cartoon by former extremist Christian Fundamentalist Ed Babinski (on amazon.com, see his book, Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists) in which he presented an evolutionary tree of Christianity, the punchline of which was a play on a standard dumb "argument" against evolution, that the resultant tree is so extensive and complex that it is impossible to imagine that it all could have stemmed from one single "Christ event". Similarly, atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell once pointed out that when a Catholic becomes a free-thinker then his only alternative is to become an atheist, whereas when a Protestant becomes a free-thinker then he simply founds a new church -- in Catholicism there's only the Universal Church or nothing (ie, heresy), whereas Protestantism was built on heresy and on breaking away and forming your own church, so Protestantism naturally splinters apart into infinite patterns.OK, so there's this seething group of "true Christians" who all believe the same things that are important to our discussion, but they disagree on minutiae which no outsider could possibly even be aware exist. So whatever label we apply to the entire group will offend most members of that group. I have personally encountered this when talking with one of them who protested very bitterly at being called a "conservative Christian" or an "evangelical".So just what do we call them? I still think that "Legion" would be a good choice.

Not familiar with that guy.As for discounting Catholics as being Christians, every time that comes up on Jesus Christ's radio show, he immediately becomes very irate (as reported by a friend -- BTW, I am in a position to explain His middle initial, H).But I think we should be able to come to agreement on this point: if you provide access to and education about contraceptives, then you will drastically reduce the number of abortions.So then, in a joint effort to reduce the number of abortions, are we in agreement?

I get it, you don't want to read it. Too much I guess. But it's full of quotes, graphs and statistics. Just the sort of thing you all like to see.

Seems to me Trump has already begun his job though not yet in office. Drawing businesses back to the US, keeping businesses from leaving. They seem to be responding positively.I don't get this constant refrain about Trump not being a Christian. I don't think we've had a real Christian in office for at least a century, maybe more, maybe not since John Quincy Adams or James Madison. At least Trump identifies himself as Christian so we know he's had that kind of experience and has the worldview. It's the worldview that counts in a President, that's where the policies come from.Nobody ever caught the Kennedys or Johnson or others in locker room talk but it's highly unlikely they didn't engage in it.I don't take any MSM stuff seriously, it's lies and propaganda, so no point in quoting NPR or any of the rest of them. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Topic is how the RCC promotes illegal immigration. You can read about it in Chapter 2 of Mumford's book, available at Amazon.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Business dealings against American interests would probably be a deal breaker.

Decided to post some of what I wrote in my blog:Here's an interview with an ex-CIA agent objecting to Trump's plan to curtail illegal immigration, on the ground that this would be keeping out members of the world's greatest monotheism, by which of course he means Roman Catholics. The CIA is heavily Catholic by the way.Here's the book, American Democracy and the Vatican by Stephen D. Mumford, 1984, that describes how the Roman Church interferes with and actively promotes the movement of millions of illegal aliens into the US. It discusses many facets of population growth but also the effect of illegal immigration in America. Not just interfering with preventing it, Mumford says "the Catholic Church actively encourages illegal Mexican immigration."It’s all in Chapter Two, which I see is no longer available at Amazon because no image is available. Funny, it was available yesterday. So all I can do is link to the page and copy what I quoted of Chapter Two in my blog: He goes on to say that the handbook also directs them to taxpayer-funded free Legal Aid for help in fighting deportation. The author of the book says that it's a felony to aid or harbor an illegal alien. Is this still the law? The book makes it clear that American Catholics for the most part oppose illegal immigration as hazardous to the economy.

I guess I should appreciate that you've taken time to try to understand my point of view, such as by listening to Alex Jones, but you just sound like everybody else here, Mod.Thought I should confirm that you are right that I've objected to Obama in the way you describe: Yes, all that, plus the fact that his mother and fathers and other men in the family and family circle were Communists. Also the interview with the mailman who talked to him outside the Ayers house when he was known to be "a foreign student," not an American, was particularly credible. And it's been a long time and I gave up, but I did look at all the documents purporting to show he was born in America and saw how they had to have been faked. But I gave up. We've had an illegal President for the last eight years. We're no longer America really, the Left has taken us over. I consider Trump's election to be some kind of miracle, God's mercy in a very dark time, which I can hope against hope will turn back the takeover and prove that the American system does work, but obviously the Left isn't going to just accept it as good Americans should, they're going to fight it with all they have. They've got a lot invested in their takeover of the country. So I hope Trump survives and can do quite a bit of what he wants to do, and that even some sour lefties might have to change their minds. We'll see, that's all, we'll see.ABE: Forgot to mention his Kenyan grandmother who said she was there when he was born. Of course they rapidly shut her up but she said it, we all heard it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Faith, he lies.It really is that simple.Roman Catholics do NOT try to help immigrants circumvent the laws. That is simply another example of your sources being liars.Try to learn how to listen to those who do not lie as a profession.I'm living in the area where il Donald wants to build his stupid wall. Let me tell you something about the reality.People cross the border for many reasons but the North bound traffic is almost all a movement towards safety. It really is that simple but there are a whole bunch of folk that really need help and Christian Churches including the Roman Catholics provide much of that.What the Roman Catholic Church provides are things I would think EVERY Christian would support:food
shelter
clothing
medical care
safety
comfortyou know, the stuff Jesus said was our duty to do. You have heard of Jesus haven't you?Yes, the RCC as well as all the organization that are trying to do what Jesus command us to do, what Jesus told Peter to do, also do direct immigrants to legal help to learn their rights as well as their responsibilities. Are you saying that their legal rights under the law should not be protected?Or are you saying they do not have any rights?

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We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

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You really need to learn some basics.The Roman Catholic Church DOES recognize national boundaries and national sovereignty as anyone honest knows. A great example is that Vatican City is a separate sovereign nation.Why do you continue to listen to liars Faith and liars that are so obviously lying?

Stephen D. Mumford is a bona fide expert on population control, a scientist with all the proper credentials who has studied the problem carefully and documented what he says in the book. Calling him a liar is ignorant to say the least.

Faith, when the very quotes you use and attribute to him contain lies, misrepresentation and absurdities it is certainly not ignorant to point out that the man is a liar, that he is dishonest and that he posits absurdities that no thinking individual could ever take seriously.