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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
vimesey
Member (Idle past 287 days)
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 841 of 892 (797034)
01-10-2017 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 840 by PaulK
01-10-2017 6:38 AM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
I have no idea who Crowdstrike are or aren't. I would need to find out more about them.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 840 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2017 6:38 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7575
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 842 of 892 (797040)
01-10-2017 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 832 by Faith
01-09-2017 9:44 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Faith writes:

The true claim is that Russia was responsible for exposing Clinton's emails (and other similar things I can never keep in mind) and in that way influenced the election by turning people against her.

Even that is seriously in doubt, however. I'm still waiting to see if Assange has anything to say about it since he SEEMED to promise to reveal the actual source.

The real question is why you are putting so much effort into exonerating Russia. Why is that? Why are Republicans flocking to Russia's aid? Don't you find that troubling?

Russia set up an air defense network in Syria. Last I checked, the Syrian rebels that Russia is fighting against have no airplanes. Who do you think those missiles are meant for? The really easy answer is that they are meant for US planes. Why are you defending a government that is threatening the US?

Russia has also attacked its neighbors. Russia has already taken over Crimea, and has attempted to retake Ukraine. While Putin is playing the role of Hitler, you cheer on as Trump plays the part of Neville Chamberlain. Why?

What is it about Russia that you find so wonderful?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by Faith, posted 01-09-2017 9:44 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 844 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 11:19 AM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 843 of 892 (797041)
01-10-2017 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 838 by NoNukes
01-10-2017 5:00 AM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
I was responding only to Riggamortis' agreement that it would be sttupid for a hacking operation to leave such blatant clues to its identify, that's all.

That's right. Except that you referred to his agreement as evidence.

No I did not. All I said was that we agree that what McAfee said about how hackers wouldn't give away their identity like that is good evidence that the report is phony.

I think pointing out that it was no such thing was appropriate. Do you have a rebuttal?

Yeah, you missed the whole simple point.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 5:00 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 845 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 2:04 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 844 of 892 (797042)
01-10-2017 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 842 by Taq
01-10-2017 10:49 AM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
The real question is why you are putting so much effort into exonerating Russia. Why is that? Why are Republicans flocking to Russia's aid? Don't you find that troubling?

It's the sort of thing that could start a war and I'd rather not start a war, especially over something that isn't even true; if it's false, which it looks like to me, then somebody may have invented it in order to start a war. Like the entire intelligence community invented WMDs in Iraq to start another war once. I'd rather not. Or maybe there is some other hidden purpose. For instance it insinuates that it was done in favor of Trump. If it's not true, which it appears to me to be the case, who has a motive to insinuate that?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 842 by Taq, posted 01-10-2017 10:49 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 854 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 3:15 PM Faith has responded
 Message 859 by Taq, posted 01-10-2017 4:14 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 863 by nwr, posted 01-10-2017 7:57 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 845 of 892 (797048)
01-10-2017 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 843 by Faith
01-10-2017 11:14 AM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
No I did not. All I said was that we agree that what McAfee said about how hackers wouldn't give away their identity like that is good evidence that the report is phony.

Again, what McAfee said is not evidence. What he gave and what Riggy stated are opinions about the evidence. Evidence consists of facts and not opinions about facts.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 11:14 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 846 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 2:19 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 846 of 892 (797049)
01-10-2017 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 845 by NoNukes
01-10-2017 2:04 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
No I did not. All I said was that we agree that what McAfee said about how hackers wouldn't give away their identity like that is good evidence that the report is phony.

Again, what McAfee said is not evidence. What he gave and what Riggy stated are opinions about the evidence. Evidence consists of facts and not opinions about facts.

I note that you are changing what you said, which perhaps wasn't what you meant but still it was what you said; but now you are hairsplitting and to what purpose?

It's a fantastically good inference that such weirdly obvious evidence that points straight at Russia when even a tenth-rate hacker would make some effort to cover his tracks, is as good as evidence against the report. In other words the evidence in the report is good evidence in itself that the report is bogus.

At the very least it's extremely strange that a hacker would be so naive. If you have another explanation, please float it.

If you just want to suggest a more accurate word, go ahead, what does it serve to make a big deal out of something so obvious?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 845 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 2:04 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 848 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 2:46 PM Faith has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 847 of 892 (797050)
01-10-2017 2:43 PM


In case it hasn't been posted yet, here's a link to the NYT reference to the "unclassified summary of a highly sensitive assessment from American intelligence and law enforcement agencies":

Intelligence Report on Russian Hacking

I'm going to suggest that when anyone references a part of the report that they believe true or think false that they quote the relevant text from the report.

AbE: Some may prefer this direct link to the PDF: Background to “Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections”: The Analytic Process and Cyber Incident Attribution

AbE2: Just to reduce potential confusion, the PDF begins with a couple pages of background information, then follows on page 4 of the PDF with the actual document “Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections”.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : AbE.

Edited by Percy, : AbE2.


Replies to this message:
 Message 851 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 2:57 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 848 of 892 (797051)
01-10-2017 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 846 by Faith
01-10-2017 2:19 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
I note that you are changing what you said, which perhaps wasn't what you meant but still it was what you said; but now you are hairsplitting and to what purpose?

No. I did not make a change. Nothing in Riggy's post constitutes evidence despite your claiming that it was "good evidence". All I have done additionally is spell out what was in that post.

And again, what you call an inference is strictly an opinion. And in understanding whether the opinion is valuable, we should take into account the fact that McAfee is pretty flaky.

At the very least it's extremely strange that a hacker would be so naive. If you have another explanation, please float it.

Again, you are relying on McAfee's opinion of the ability of hackers to conceal their tracks. His opinion may or may not be correct. Generally speaking, arguments that a crime is too stupid for a criminal to commit are not what I consider persuasive.

ABE:

If you just want to suggest a more accurate word, go ahead, what does it serve to make a big deal out of something so obvious?

Why are you trying to oversell the basis for your opinion.

1) The statement is not evidence.
2) The conclusion is at most plausible. It may or may not be correct.

You can form your own opinion any way you want to. But if you are making an attempt to be persuasive, don't be surprised if your excesses are pointed out. Reasonable people can reach different conclusions about what to believe.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 846 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 2:19 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 849 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2017 2:48 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 2:55 PM NoNukes has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 849 of 892 (797052)
01-10-2017 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 848 by NoNukes
01-10-2017 2:46 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
I would note that it also relies on McAfee being familiar with the actual evidence - which is mostly still classified. The Crowdstrike blog entry I linked earlier gives a rather different impression - and Crowdstrike actually did investigate the hack.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 848 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 2:46 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 850 of 892 (797053)
01-10-2017 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 848 by NoNukes
01-10-2017 2:46 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Rread what you wrote. You said I treated RM's comment as evidence. I DID NOT. And I'm not addressing anything else you say until you straighten this out.

\


This message is a reply to:
 Message 848 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 2:46 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 852 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 3:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 851 of 892 (797054)
01-10-2017 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 847 by Percy
01-10-2017 2:43 PM


Thanks Percy.

Too statements in the report:

quote:
The Intelligence Community rarely can publicly reveal the full extent of its knowledge or the precise bases for its assessments, as the release of such information would reveal sensitive sources or methods and imperil the ability to collect critical foreign intelligence in the future.

Thus, while the conclusions in the report are all reflected in the classified assessment, the declassified report does not and cannot include the full supporting information, including specific intelligence and
sources and methods.


In short, analyses that complain that the report does not contain the evidence are likely to be off base because that is not the purpose of the report.

What some critiques are doing is using secondary indicators in lieu of having any kind of evidence or facts to attack/address the conclusions. That's fine, but you have to acknowledge the short comings of such things. Is AGW really bogus because Al Gore believes in it?

Intelligence folks lie, so the report is full of lies is another such argument.

Secondly, claims that the Russians are too sophisticated to do X does not really overcome evidence that they actually did X. Again, such arguments are secondary arguments to use when there is no primary evidence or alternatively when you don't understand the evidence.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 847 by Percy, posted 01-10-2017 2:43 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 852 of 892 (797055)
01-10-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 850 by Faith
01-10-2017 2:55 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
You said I treated RM's comment as evidence. I DID NOT. And I'm not addressing anything else you say until you straighten this out

Then I suspect you will be waiting indefinitely.

Here Message 832 is what you said in response to RMs comment, Faith:

Faith writes:

Seems like good evidence to me too.

Notice the too at the end of the sentence.

And to what were you responding? Message 831

Rigsy writes:

That is a good point, any decent hacker can cover their tracks pretty well. Especially so, you would think, of a trained intelligence agent.

That statement is not evidence. It is an opinion.

Did I make a mistake about what you were referring to. Apparently not according to you:

quote:
was responding only to Riggamortis' agreement that it would be sttupid for a hacking operation to leave such blatant clues to its identify, that's all.

Again, that agreement is not evidence.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 2:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 853 of 892 (797056)
01-10-2017 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 829 by Faith
01-09-2017 6:48 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Faith writes:

John McAfee, known for his work in cybersecurity, says the supposed evidence given in the CIA report for Russian hacking shows such a low level of intelligence competence that alone proves it false: that is, the evidence they give is that a Russian Cyrillic keyboard was used,...

Neither the word "Cyrillic" nor "keyboard" appear in the report (Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections).

...the time/date stamp indicated an origin in Moscow,...

Neither the word "stamp" nor "timestamp" nor "date" appear in the report.

...the IP number was from Russia,...

Neither the acronym "IP" nor the word "address" (that's what it really is, an IP address) nor the word "number" as a synonym for address appear in the report.

John McAfee appears to be making things up.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by Faith, posted 01-09-2017 6:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 856 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 3:35 PM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 854 of 892 (797057)
01-10-2017 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 844 by Faith
01-10-2017 11:19 AM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
It's the sort of thing that could start a war and I'd rather not start a war, especially over something that isn't even true;

You are missing the point; apparently deliberately.

Nobody is threatening to start a war over the hacking. Instead they are talking about sanctions and pulling some diplomats. On the other hand, the things Taq cites are actually provocative and warlike way (missiles targeting US planes and threats to NATO countries) yet you give them a free pass. Compared to those things, hacking a couple of computers, the way say China has done to us to steal corporate secrets is a drop in the budget.

What is at stake here is not whether or not we go to war with Russia, but whether or not we treat them as our buxom buddy. Even Trump seems at this point to acknowledge that the Russians probably hacked into the DNC.

http://www.businessinsider.com/...us-russia-dnc-hacks-2017-1

quote:
Reince Priebus said Trump "accepts the fact that this particular case was entities in Russia" but argued that the DNC should be criticized for the way it handled cybersecurity threats.

Whatever the truth is, surely Priebus is right about the criticism due the DNC. On the other hand, what was Watergate about?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 844 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 11:19 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 855 by Percy, posted 01-10-2017 3:21 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 857 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 3:37 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 855 of 892 (797058)
01-10-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 854 by NoNukes
01-10-2017 3:15 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
NoNukes writes:

quote:
Reince Priebus said Trump "accepts the fact that this particular case was entities in Russia" but argued that the DNC should be criticized for the way it handled cybersecurity threats.

Whatever the truth is, surely Priebus is right about the criticism due the DNC.

According to the report, the Republicans were hacked, too:

quote:
Russia collected on some Republican-affiliated targets but did not conduct a comparable disclosure campaign.

Republicans might not want to be too smug, lest they find their own emails released once the bloom is off the Trump/Putin love-fest.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 3:15 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
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