Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 91 (8839 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-25-2018 8:22 PM
215 online now:
GDR, jar, Modulous (AdminModulous), NoNukes (4 members, 211 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Calvin
Post Volume:
Total: 832,464 Year: 7,287/29,783 Month: 1,511/1,708 Week: 402/474 Day: 59/84 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
555657
58
5960Next
Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
Faith
Member
Posts: 28068
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 856 of 892 (797060)
01-10-2017 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 853 by Percy
01-10-2017 3:15 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
I suppose you must be reading the declassified report. He's commenting on the actual report.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 853 by Percy, posted 01-10-2017 3:15 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 858 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2017 3:48 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 862 by Percy, posted 01-10-2017 7:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28068
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 857 of 892 (797061)
01-10-2017 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 854 by NoNukes
01-10-2017 3:15 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
The subject is not what Russia may be doing to provoke war. THAT'S ANOTHER SUBJECT. I'm talking about the validity of the intelligence report on Russian hacking of the election. Period.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 3:15 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 860 by Taq, posted 01-10-2017 4:15 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 861 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 4:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13885
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 858 of 892 (797062)
01-10-2017 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 856 by Faith
01-10-2017 3:35 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
And what makes you think the McAfee has seen the actual report ?

Or that the details he lists would have been classified anyway ?

I had my doubts about his claims - I suspected that he was cherry-picking at best - and it seems that those doubts have been confirmed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 3:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7430
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 859 of 892 (797064)
01-10-2017 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 844 by Faith
01-10-2017 11:19 AM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Faith writes:

It's the sort of thing that could start a war and I'd rather not start a war, especially over something that isn't even true;

It's as if Neville Chamberlain has been resurrected from the dead.

This is the same attitude that some politicians took towards Hitler. How did that work out?

Also, we already have more than we need to start a war, if we wanted to. Their meddling in our politics is the least of their sins.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 844 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 11:19 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 866 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 12:00 AM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7430
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 860 of 892 (797065)
01-10-2017 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 857 by Faith
01-10-2017 3:37 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Faith writes:

The subject is not what Russia may be doing to provoke war. THAT'S ANOTHER SUBJECT. I'm talking about the validity of the intelligence report on Russian hacking of the election. Period.

It would seem to me that you made your mind up before looking at any evidence. Your basis for rejecting one person's findings over another is based solely on their support of Russia. Why are you supporting Russia?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 3:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10605
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 861 of 892 (797067)
01-10-2017 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 857 by Faith
01-10-2017 3:37 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
The subject is not what Russia may be doing to provoke war. THAT'S ANOTHER SUBJECT. I'm talking about the validity of the intelligence report on Russian hacking of the election. Period.

Right, Faith. Except that you stated your wish that the hacking not provoke a war. Here is an apology for you. I am sorry that I exposed your hypocrisy over the hacking which nobody is using as reason to fight a war with Russia.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 3:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17166
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 862 of 892 (797068)
01-10-2017 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 856 by Faith
01-10-2017 3:35 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Faith writes:

He's commenting on the actual report.

As McAfee says in the first 20 seconds (see the YouTube video in your Message 829), he's referring to the Grizzly Steppe report about malicious Russian cyber activity, which you can find here: GRIZZLY STEPPE – Russian Malicious Cyber Activity. McAfee has no way of knowing if the classified report is based upon Grizzly Steppe because he hasn't seen it, but it would make no sense to classify material already released in a public report. As the unclassified report states:

quote:
“Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections” is a declassified version of a highly classified assessment that has been provided to the President and to recipients approved by the President.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Clarification.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 3:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5579
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(1)
Message 863 of 892 (797069)
01-10-2017 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 844 by Faith
01-10-2017 11:19 AM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Like the entire intelligence community invented WMDs in Iraq to start another war once. I'd rather not. Or maybe there is some other hidden purpose.

I'm pretty sure that's false.

It was Bush and Cheney who invented WMDs. I'm pretty sure that the intelligence community was giving Bush accurate information in private, while giving him that "slam dunk" in public.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 844 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 11:19 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 867 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 12:36 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19484
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 864 of 892 (797071)
01-10-2017 9:34 PM


Russians Hacked Trump and the RNC too
They just kept that to themselves so they could use it to make Trump dance to their tunes. You've probably seen some of he news items online ... here's a couple:

quote:
Intelligence report: Russia hacked the RNC, may have dirt on Trump

In a pair of political bombshells, the US intelligence community announced that not only did Russian spies likely hack the Republican party alongside the DNC, but that the President-elect's campaign team maintained routine contact with Russian operatives throughout the election cycle. Not only that, US intelligence has alleged that Russia may have compromising personal or financial information about Donald Trump, which could be used to blackmail the next President and directly influence his actions in office.

The first announcement involves classified briefings presented to both President Obama and Donald Trump that allege Russians have compromising information on the PEOTUS. Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, FBI Director James Comey, CIA Director John Brennan, and NSA Director Admiral Mike Rogers all signed off on the two-page synopsis.

The synopsis also alleges that Russian intermediaries and members of the Trump campaign colluded to share information throughout the election. According to the report, the disclosure of this classified information to congressional members prompted Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid to write FBI Director Comey in October and insist that, "It has become clear that you possess explosive information about close ties and coordination between Donald Trump, his top advisors, and the Russian government -- a foreign interest openly hostile to the United States."


quote:
British Intel: Russia Blackmailing Trump With Video Of Him Paying Prostitutes For Golden Showers

A confidential dossier released by BuzzFeed news that is unconfirmed but is credible enough to be presented to President Obama alleges that the Russian Federal Security Service has video evidence of Donald Trump engaging in “perverted sex parties” that include hiring prostitutes to urinate in front of him on the bed that President Obama and his wife shared at the Moscow Ritz-Carlton.

... this certainly would explain how the Russian government would be able to blackmail Donald Trump into doing whatever they wanted – and all of Donald Trump’s actions up to this point indicate that he has been operating in service of Vladimir Putin.


That adds a golden touch to his visits to Russia.

Also http://usuncut.com/politics/twitter-goldenshowers-hilarious/

Then there are the financial debts he owes ...

#notMYpresident

Edited by RAZD, : added first quote


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

Replies to this message:
 Message 865 by RAZD, posted 01-10-2017 10:03 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19484
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 865 of 892 (797074)
01-10-2017 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by RAZD
01-10-2017 9:34 PM


Re: Russians Hacked Trump and the RNC too
I want to stress that the information is unconfirmed at this time.

See also

quote:
SNOPES: Memos leaked to the media claiming that Trump was blackmailed by Russian operatives are not verified.

While the news was being reported as "breaking," the information had actually been explored in depth in a 31 October 2016 article by Mother Jones. Unlike Mother Jones, however, on 10 January 2016, Buzzfeed published the document in full:

A dossier making explosive — but unverified — allegations that the Russian government has been “cultivating, supporting and assisting” President-elect Donald Trump for years and gained compromising information about him has been circulating among elected officials, intelligence agents, and journalists for weeks.

The dossier, which is a collection of memos written over a period of months, includes specific, unverified, and potentially unverifiable allegations of contact between Trump aides and Russian operatives, and graphic claims of sexual acts documented by the Russians. CNN reported Tuesday that a two-page synopsis of the report was given to President Barack Obama and Trump.

Now BuzzFeed News is publishing the full document so that Americans can make up their own minds about allegations about the president-elect that have circulated at the highest levels of the US government.

The 36-page document's most discussed claim may be that the Russian government possesses a video of Trump engaging in an orgy with prostitutes who perform a "golden shower," or urinate on each other in an effort to defile a bed once slept on by the Obamas because (according to the report) Trump "hated" them.

It also claims that the regime of Russian president Vladimir Putin has been actively "cultivating, assisting and supporting" Trump for five years:


Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by RAZD, posted 01-10-2017 9:34 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 166 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 866 of 892 (797076)
01-11-2017 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 859 by Taq
01-10-2017 4:14 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Perhaps the US could remove the beam from its own eye rather than pissing and moaning about Russia doing exactly what the US has been doing for decades? If meddling in another nations politics is a sin, then I suspect there's a special place in hell for the US.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by Taq, posted 01-10-2017 4:14 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 869 by Taq, posted 01-11-2017 12:52 PM Riggamortis has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 28068
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 867 of 892 (797077)
01-11-2017 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 863 by nwr
01-10-2017 7:57 PM


Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
Like the entire intelligence community invented WMDs in Iraq to start another war once. I'd rather not. Or maybe there is some other hidden purpose.

I'm pretty sure that's false.

It was Bush and Cheney who invented WMDs. I'm pretty sure that the intelligence community was giving Bush accurate information in private, while giving him that "slam dunk" in public.

Sounds like all they had was INaccurate information, according to Colin Powell, information that everybody nevertheless took to be true. Here he is talking about how he regrets the case he made for WMD in 2003, and it sounds to me like he's saying it originated with intelligence..And here is where he mentions that 16 agencies agreed that Iraq had WMD, although he doesn't exactly say they invented the idea, as I put it.

...I made the case with the director of central intelligence sitting behind me. He and his team had vouched for everything in it. We didn’t make up anything. We threw out a lot of stuff that was not double- and triple-sourced, because I knew the importance of this.

When I was through, I felt pretty good about it. I thought we had made the case, and there was pretty good reaction to it for a few weeks. And then suddenly, the CIA started to let us know that the case was falling apart — parts of the case were falling apart. It was deeply disturbing to me and to the president, to all of us, and to the Congress, because they had voted on the basis of that information. And 16 intelligence agencies had agreed to it, with footnotes. None of the footnotes took away their agreement.

So it was deeply troubling, and I think that it was a great intelligence failure on our part, because the problems that existed in that NIE should have been recognized and caught earlier by the intelligence community.

(my emphasis)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 863 by nwr, posted 01-10-2017 7:57 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 868 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2017 5:15 AM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10605
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(3)
Message 868 of 892 (797080)
01-11-2017 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 867 by Faith
01-11-2017 12:36 AM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
and it sounds to me like he's saying it originated with intelligence..And here is where he mentions that 16 agencies agreed that Iraq had WMD, although he doesn't exactly say they invented the idea, as I put it.

We no longer have to guess about these questions Faith. The document that was the basis of the authorization to use force has been declassified and released. I'll cite some of the information. It largely confirms my opinion that General Powell was badly abused by the Bush administration.

https://news.vice.com/...posedly-justified-the-iraq-invasion

It seems abundantly clear that the information from the intelligence services was spun, "upgraded" in certainty, and exaggerated by the politicians, primarily the Bush administration. In many cases qualified hypothesis were upgraded to fact.

Here is one excerpt from quoted from the document. There is plenty more similar stuff.

quote:
An example of that: According to the newly declassified NIE, the intelligence community concluded that Iraq "probably has renovated a [vaccine] production plant" to manufacture biological weapons "but we are unable to determine whether [biological weapons] agent research has resumed." The NIE also said Hussein did not have "sufficient material" to manufacture any nuclear weapons and "the information we have on Iraqi nuclear personnel does not appear consistent with a coherent effort to reconstitute a nuclear weapons program."

But in an October 7, 2002 speech in Cincinnati, Ohio, then-President George W. Bush simply said Iraq, "possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons" and "the evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program."


And of course everyone is probably aware of the statements Colin Powell passed on about Iraq trying to purchase yellow cake. Remember what happened to Valerie Plume after her husband debunked this bit of falsehood?

Yet another excerpt:

quote:
"We do have solid evidence of the presence in Iraq of al Qaeda members, including some that have been in Baghdad," Rumsfeld said. "We have what we consider to be very reliable reporting of senior-level contacts going back a decade, and of possible chemical- and biological-agent training."

But the NIE said its information about a working relationship between al Qaeda and Iraq was based on "sources of varying reliability" — like Iraqi defectors — and it was not at all clear that Hussein had even been aware of a relationship, if in fact there were one.


Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 867 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 12:36 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 870 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 1:52 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7430
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 869 of 892 (797092)
01-11-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 866 by Riggamortis
01-11-2017 12:00 AM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Riggamortis writes:

Perhaps the US could remove the beam from its own eye rather than pissing and moaning about Russia doing exactly what the US has been doing for decades? If meddling in another nations politics is a sin, then I suspect there's a special place in hell for the US.

That's a fair criticism, but for it to have weight we have to agree that Russia is behind the attack.

When the conservative right of American politics reflexively defends Russia from findings that put Russia in a bad light, what in the world is going on? We are talking about the Party of Reagan, for crying out loud. Would Reagan have bent over backwards to cover up Russian spying in the US, and talk about how Gorbachev is such a great leader simply because Ol' Gorby said nice things about Ronnie?

Both Russia and the US rolled around in the same global political pig sty for quite some time. None of us are clean nor should we pretend we are. However, at least we were both smart enough to have proxy governments battle it out in the past so we could both save face and avoid direct conflict. Now we are seeing direct attacks, which is something new.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 866 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 12:00 AM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 876 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 8:15 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 28068
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 870 of 892 (797095)
01-11-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 868 by NoNukes
01-11-2017 5:15 AM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
Then the intelligence agencies simply caved in to what they knew Bush wanted, Powell too. But the point I was addressing was that those agencies, ALL 16 OF THEM, lied about there being WMD in Iraq. Sad to think we can't trust them.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 868 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2017 5:15 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 871 by Taq, posted 01-11-2017 4:07 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 873 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2017 7:56 PM Faith has responded

    
RewPrev1
...
555657
58
5960Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018