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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
Taq
Member
Posts: 7575
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 871 of 892 (797109)
01-11-2017 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 870 by Faith
01-11-2017 1:52 PM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
Faith writes:

Sad to think we can't trust them.

I'm thinking you would trust them completely if they said something bad about a Democrat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 870 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 1:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 872 by herebedragons, posted 01-11-2017 4:44 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1483
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(3)
Message 872 of 892 (797110)
01-11-2017 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Taq
01-11-2017 4:07 PM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
I'm thinking you would trust them completely if they said something bad about a Democrat.

Yea, I'm sure that would be the case.

But it seems to me as if this type of bias comes from both sides of the isle. It always reminds me of this cartoon:

It's why I try and take a moderate, middle of the road approach to politics and not go to far to support the left or the right. I recognize that both side are politicians.

If there is anything a person like Trump (that is some one with his background and position) could/should accomplish as President it is to bring some sanity to Washington and make people realize that ultimately we are all working towards the same goal and by compromising and working together we could make some great changes in this country. But it seems pretty obvious that Trump doesn't have the mentality or personality to accomplish that. Instead his presidency is going to drive an even larger wedge between the left and the right. What we need in this country is to break from the partisan politics that are tearing us apart and start working on what is right, not just support it because our party supports it or oppose it because our 'enemies' (the opposite party) supports it (eg. Obamacare - someone suggested just leaving it exactly like it is and renaming it Trumpcare - then the Republicans would all be happy with the plan). [/rant]

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Taq, posted 01-11-2017 4:07 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 874 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2017 8:00 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 873 of 892 (797111)
01-11-2017 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 870 by Faith
01-11-2017 1:52 PM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
Then the intelligence agencies simply caved in to what they knew Bush wanted, Powell too. But the point I was addressing was that those agencies, ALL 16 OF THEM, lied about there being WMD in Iraq. Sad to think we can't trust them.

Nice try to avoid the point. But you have it completely wrong.

No, they did not cave in. I provided documentation of exactly that point. The document in question is what was provided to Bush before he made requested authority from Congress. The intelligence agencies said that most likely there were no WMDs and put out a report saying that. That's the point, Faith. The intelligence guys put out reports with plenty of disclaimers and indications that some things were just guesses. It was the administration that white washed all of that into certainty.

Let's also remember that the 'yellow cake' intelligence came from a British intelligence not american. This shows exactly how desperate the administration was to find something to go to war about.

Of course, since you are claiming that the intelligence agencies caved, I expect you can provide a source. So where is it?

ABE:

I also wanted to add that according to Powell the intelligence became less certain over time rather than more certain. Yet the administration still proceeded to war. Trump's take on this is that Bush lied, and he said exactly that during the primary campaign.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 870 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 1:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 879 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 9:12 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 874 of 892 (797112)
01-11-2017 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 872 by herebedragons
01-11-2017 4:44 PM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
n and make people realize that ultimately we are all working towards the same goal

Is that true?

Are we all working towards the same goal? I am not sure that is the case unless the goal is expressed in nearly nebulous terms like "promoting freedom, liberty, and the American way".

The health care situation is the perfect time to phrase things in a "same goal" way. Is the republican goal really to provide better cheaper effective coverage for the 20 million Americans who have Obama care plus the uncovered poor? I doubt it, but there is the opportunity.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 872 by herebedragons, posted 01-11-2017 4:44 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 875 by jar, posted 01-11-2017 8:12 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 875 of 892 (797114)
01-11-2017 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 874 by NoNukes
01-11-2017 8:00 PM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
There is only one civilized first world nation where a family can be bankrupted due to the cost of health care.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 874 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2017 8:00 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 876 of 892 (797115)
01-11-2017 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 869 by Taq
01-11-2017 12:52 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
That's a fair criticism, but for it to have weight we have to agree that Russia is behind the attack.

I disagree, the charge of hypocrisy stands so long as the accusation is being made and the US is kicking up a stink about it.

Until the allegation that the Russians have dirt on Trump with which they may manipulate him I couldn't really see a reason why it mattered who had done it. If true, that certainly is cause for concern. Having said that, Trump won the election after a leaked recording of him bragging about sexually assaulting women so I don't know that the video gives the Russians any real leverage over him.

I certainly agree that the Republican reaction to it all is very odd, it could just be that they don't want to be seen as having received help from Russia. They normally hate Russia don't they?

Both Russia and the US rolled around in the same global political pig sty for quite some time. None of us are clean nor should we pretend we are. However, at least we were both smart enough to have proxy governments battle it out in the past so we could both save face and avoid direct conflict.

I agree for the most part but using other countries as proxy battlegrounds is only smart from the US and Russia's perspective. From another perspective it's pretty bloody evil to go around using other countries and their people as cannon fodder for your economic proxy wars.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 869 by Taq, posted 01-11-2017 12:52 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 877 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2017 8:24 PM Riggamortis has responded
 Message 878 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 8:58 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded
 Message 884 by Taq, posted 01-12-2017 10:45 AM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 877 of 892 (797116)
01-11-2017 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 876 by Riggamortis
01-11-2017 8:15 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Until the allegation that the Russians have dirt on Trump with which they may manipulate him I couldn't really see a reason why it mattered who had done it.

I understand that some people feel that way. After all, if the information is true, what's wrong with people knowing the truth. I am not in that camp and I feel that argument is totally bogus.

Folks ought to be able to have bad ideas, or even illegal ideas in practice as long as they don't put them into action. So the idea that the DNC had secrets that they wanted to keep is fine. Given that, releasing one sides secret plans without releasing the other's is inherently unfair, and if done by a foreign government trying to influence our elections is concerning.

And that concern exists regardless of what our history is. Maybe the government has no reason to complain, but I sure as hell do. Particular when I've also been complaining about our own government's interference.

Until the allegation that the Russians have dirt on Trump with which they may manipulate him

I don't give that dirt the least bit of credence. Beyond that, I doubt I could be more disgusted with Trump if that crap were correct.

Edited by NoNukes, : Some tweaking.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 8:15 PM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 881 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 10:59 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 878 of 892 (797117)
01-11-2017 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 876 by Riggamortis
01-11-2017 8:15 PM


Trump's Misbehaviors: the ongoing misinformation
... a leaked recording of him bragging about sexually assaulting women

Got to get this straight:

Are you talking about that "locker room" talk episode on the bus before a soap opera appearance some years ago? If so, this statement misrepresents it. He was talking about WANTING to do this or that, not bragging about having "assaulted" a woman. He claimed to not be able to stop himself from kissing women, not that it ever actually occurred. And as for the crotch grab remark he was saying that if you are a star some women will let a man do that, not bragging that he'd done it.

Then he said Clinton had said worse to him on the golf course.

And in a speech he said he himself had only talked about such things, whereas Clinton had actually abused women, and that Hillary had trashed the same women in defending him. Hillary who dared to make an issue of the mere talk by Trump as abusive of women.

AND all the women who claimed some kind of assault by Trump were lying, unlike those who made the same kind of claim about Bill Clinton.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 8:15 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 883 by NoNukes, posted 01-12-2017 3:11 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 879 of 892 (797118)
01-11-2017 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 873 by NoNukes
01-11-2017 7:56 PM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
Yes that Powell said the information became less certain, but was he lying when he said 16 intelligence agencies all signed off on the presence of WMD?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2017 7:56 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 880 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2017 9:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 880 of 892 (797119)
01-11-2017 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 879 by Faith
01-11-2017 9:12 PM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
Yes that Powell said the information became less certain, but was he lying when he said 16 intelligence agencies all signed off on the presence of WMD?

You don't need me to answer that for you. What do the facts actually say? The facts are that intelligence signed off on a document casting doubt on the presence of WMD. It is not my opinion, but a consensus opinion that the intelligence was misrepresented severely prior to the invasion.

You want to convince anyone that the exact opposite is the case? Then produce some facts. Yes, there were some intelligence errors and some of those did improperly assess Iraq as a threat worthy of invading. And I am not suggesting that the intelligence could not be wrong once again. But to dismiss the current intelligence out of hand because of those errors goes too far.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 9:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 881 of 892 (797121)
01-11-2017 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 877 by NoNukes
01-11-2017 8:24 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Folks ought to be able to have bad ideas, or even illegal ideas in practice as long as they don't put them into action. So the idea that the DNC had secrets that they wanted to keep is fine. Given that, releasing one sides secret plans without releasing the other's is inherently unfair, and if done by a foreign government trying to influence our elections is concerning.

I read a press release from Assange a while ago, I couldn't find it with a quick google though. In it he did say that Wikileaks didn't have any Trump/Republican dirt to release, otherwise they would have, so make of that what you will.

I'm guessing you were never a Bernie supporter? Even as an Australian I'm angry at the DNC for screwing him out of the nomination. Hillarys camp in the DNC did conspire with the media to keep Bernie from winning the nom. It wasn't just an idea. From the polls I've seen he certainly should have won it and would've likely beaten Trump in the primary too. Then you've got the Clinton Foundation scam, if she was taking donations in return for favours from her govt position, that constitutes treason, no?

Maybe the government has no reason to complain, but I sure as hell do. Particular when I've also been complaining about our own government's interference.

Of course, that's why I have been careful to charge the US with hypocrisy rather than Taq or any individual American. The main reason I responded to his post was that it gave me the (false) impression that he saw it as black and white, US is good, Russia is bad.

I don't give that dirt the least bit of credence. Beyond that, I doubt I could be more disgusted with Trump if that crap were correct.

If true, it's pretty gross and childish but nothing compared to what's already come out anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 877 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2017 8:24 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 882 by NoNukes, posted 01-12-2017 1:08 AM Riggamortis has not yet responded
 Message 885 by Taq, posted 01-12-2017 10:54 AM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 882 of 892 (797122)
01-12-2017 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 881 by Riggamortis
01-11-2017 10:59 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Regarding screwing Bernie out of the primaries. Neither the Republican nor the Democratic primaries are democratic, and are not intended to be. The are the process by which the parties select their own candidates. Bernie is not a democrat. He is an independent. I immensely preferred Bernie, but the party did not want him and in the end, Hilary won the primary by almost as many votes as she won the actual election, meaning several million votes.

As far as the hypocrisy about the government, well theoretically at least, the Congress folks are supposed to represent us. If I am mad about election tampering, they should be too. All that is required regarding addressing hypocrisy is that any actions taken be proportionate.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 881 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 10:59 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 883 of 892 (797124)
01-12-2017 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 878 by Faith
01-11-2017 8:58 PM


Re: Trump's Misbehaviors: the ongoing misinformation
If so, this statement misrepresents it. He was talking about WANTING to do this or that, not bragging about having "assaulted" a woman.

Your statement is inaccurate. Trump specifically talked about what he was able to do with impunity because he was a celebrity. He said that just starts kissing women without asking. He also related a story of failing his attempt to seduce a married woman that he moved on "like a bitch". Not tried to move on... he claimed he did move on. Yes he did also talk about things he thought he could do without asking, and may have never done.

At some point, consistently spinning statements about the same subject starts to sound like lying. You aren't at that point in my opinion. But you are extremely careless about what you say. I highly recommend checking first.

Example:

quote:
“You know I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait.”

“And when you’re a star, they let you do it,” Trump says. “You can do anything.”



Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 8:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7575
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 884 of 892 (797133)
01-12-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 876 by Riggamortis
01-11-2017 8:15 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Riggamortis writes:

I disagree, the charge of hypocrisy stands so long as the accusation is being made and the US is kicking up a stink about it.

I don't know if it is even hypocrisy. If the Russians caught the US red handed meddling in their elections then I think we would understand if the Russians were less than happy about it.

What I think troubles people more is that Russia tried to influence the elections, and it appears that it may have worked. The candidate they wanted to win has actually won.

In addition, one of Trumps campaign managers early in his Presidential bid, Paul Manafort, worked directly with the Russians to try and get their preferred candidate elected in Ukraine. In hind sight, that's some spooky shit.

I agree for the most part but using other countries as proxy battlegrounds is only smart from the US and Russia's perspective. From another perspective it's pretty bloody evil to go around using other countries and their people as cannon fodder for your economic proxy wars.

I completely agree.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 8:15 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7575
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 885 of 892 (797134)
01-12-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 881 by Riggamortis
01-11-2017 10:59 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Riggamortis writes:

Then you've got the Clinton Foundation scam, if she was taking donations in return for favours from her govt position, that constitutes treason, no?

I believe that would be considered corruption, not treason. What you would need for such a charge is a clear quid pro quo which no one was ever able to demonstrate. The problem is that we could play the "If Game" and impugn the character of anybody we want.

Of course, that's why I have been careful to charge the US with hypocrisy rather than Taq or any individual American. The main reason I responded to his post was that it gave me the (false) impression that he saw it as black and white, US is good, Russia is bad.

A little hypocrisy isn't a bad thing. We are all hypocritical about one thing or another. We all think our families are the best. We forgive the actions of our close friends before we would forgive the same actions by a stranger. Hypocrisy is just part of being human. I'm not saying we should embrace it, but we should recognize it at the same time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 881 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 10:59 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
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