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Author Topic:   The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
Phat
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Posts: 9753
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1 of 267 (793180)
10-23-2016 9:17 AM


For the sake of this discussion, lets assume that Paul wrote much of the New Testament. This website suggests that Paul wrote Romans, 1st & 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1st & 2nd Thessalonians 1st & 2nd Timothy, Titus, Philemon and there is a debate regarding Hebrews, so we can leave that out.

In another topic, jar and I had the following exchange:

Phat writes:

Would you go so far as to say that the God that Paul marketed be opposed, reviled, condemned?


jar writes:

Which God that Paul marketed? His sales pitch changed over time. But yes, some of the things Paul tried to market should be opposed, reviled, condemned!

So in this topic, lets examine the "God" that Paul marketed in the 13 books attributed to him.

Faith & Belief, please.

Edited by Admin, : Minor format fix.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 10-24-2016 12:04 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Admin
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Message 2 of 267 (793182)
10-23-2016 9:31 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The God That Paul Marketed Over Time. thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9753
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 3 of 267 (793200)
10-24-2016 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
10-23-2016 9:17 AM


To Get Started...
Lots of my response and initial argument is addressed to jar, but I want anyone and everyone to feel free to step into the discussion.

jar writes:

Paul's product was quite different ... broader in scope and acceptance of non-observance of so called laws and tradition, more open to adopting pagan practices, cultures and rites and more concerned with social practices than John. His was a pragmatic product that evolved from a simple End of Times position to one of long term organization and evolution.

I don't see that there was any time that Paul did not believe that Christs return was imminent. I would argue that Pauls zeal and passion were based on a life transforming event.
Pauline Christianity is based on Paul amplifying and explaining what Jesus really meant. What you see in Paul's Epistles is Jesus through the filter of Paul.
Would not the Gospels be Jesus through the "filter" of their authors also? You emphasize Jesus life. Paul and others emphasized the death, burial, and resurrection. Why do people fail to see that many were transformed by the renewing of their minds?? Do you think that they were simply convinced (and sold) a new product. What keeps you from believing in the power of the death, burial, and resurrection? The fact that you yourself have not drank the koolaid? (By the way...I am convinced that conversion is genuine--though not always all at once. I honestly believe that the Holy Spirit enters a man upon simple confession. I will admit, however, that this doctrine was first described by Paul.

jar writes:

Gradually Paul's product came to dominate the early church partially because he seemed to live longer, was more open to compromise with outside authority and the fact that his conversion did nothing to diminish his obsessions.

What specifically were his obsessions?

One other thing: I dont believe that Paul was marketing an unknown God...but lets start by going to the scriptures...shall we start in Romans?

Authorship Of The Pauline Epistles

Edited by Phat, : fixed

Edited by Phat, : added link


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-23-2016 9:17 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 10-24-2016 11:56 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 267 (793230)
10-24-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
10-24-2016 12:04 AM


Re: To Get Started...
Phat writes:

I don't see that there was any time that Paul did not believe that Christs return was imminent.


Did he define imminent as two thousand years and counting?

Phat writes:

I would argue that Pauls zeal and passion were based on a life transforming event.


A lot of people have life-transforming events. Sometimes they transform your life for the better, sometimes for the worse.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 10-24-2016 12:04 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 10-24-2016 2:01 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9753
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 5 of 267 (793242)
10-24-2016 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
10-24-2016 11:56 AM


Re: To Get Started...
Did he define imminent as two thousand years and counting?
How do we know that Pauls words were not mean't for a much later audience? The authors themselves had no way of knowing when Jesus would return but they were confidant it would happen.

A lot of people have life-transforming events.
Transformation is always for the better. Change can be better or worse.

Transformation is not something you do, though it is something you continually choose through doing.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 10-24-2016 11:56 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 10-24-2016 4:58 PM Phat has responded
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 10-25-2016 11:43 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 6 of 267 (793258)
10-24-2016 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
10-24-2016 2:01 PM


Re: To Get Started...
Phat writes:

How do we know that Pauls words were not mean't for a much later audience? The authors themselves had no way of knowing when Jesus would return but they were confidant it would happen.

We can know that Paul's words were not meant for a much later audience because he addresses his writings telling us who it was meant for.

But the authors (the early ones) did know when Jesus would return since Jesus told them he would return while the audience he was addressing were still alive.

Phat writes:

Transformation is always for the better. Change can be better or worse.

Transformation is not something you do, though it is something you continually choose through doing.

Now that is not just word salad and nonsense, it is word salad and nonsense that is self-contradictory.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 10-24-2016 2:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 10-27-2016 12:43 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 7 of 267 (793305)
10-25-2016 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
10-24-2016 2:01 PM


Re: To Get Started...
Phat writes:

The authors themselves had no way of knowing when Jesus would return but they were confidant it would happen.


You said yourself that Paul believed Christ's return was "imminent". Today's end-timers say Christ's return is (still) imminent. Tell them that the "signs" they are seeing are meant for a much later audience, two thousand years from now.

Phat writes:

Transformation is always for the better. Change can be better or worse.


No. That distinction doesn't work. Being paralyzed and confined to a wheelchair would definitely be a life-transforming event but few people would say it was for the better.

Phat writes:

Transformation is not something you do...


Of course transformation can be something you do, like overcoming an addiction.

Phat writes:

... though it is something you continually choose through doing.


You seem to be obsessed with the idea of somebody else doing it for you - or to you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 10-24-2016 2:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 10-26-2016 12:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9753
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 8 of 267 (793354)
10-26-2016 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
10-25-2016 11:43 AM


Re: To Get Started...
ringo writes:

You seem to be obsessed with the idea of somebody else doing it for you - or to you.


Look at Romans. Paul starts it off by saying
Rom 1:4-6 writes:

Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

Right away Paul talks of something we receive from Jesus. The emphasis is never on what we do in and of ourselves but rather what we either do for Christ or what He does through us.
Rom 2:28-29 writes:

A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Notice how the mans transformation is by the Spirit and his praise is from God.
This scripture supports the idea that we are transformed...we do not transform ourselves.

As for the idea that Christianity is all about what we do, Paul makes it clear that of ourselves we can do nothing.

Rom 3:10-12 writes:


10 As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

Paul does speak of what we must do, but he says we cannot do it by ourselves. We need God in us.

It is God that does what needs to be done through us. We have the responsibility to do, yes...but it is as co-laborers with Christ. Again, we cannot do it ourselves.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 10-25-2016 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 10-26-2016 3:26 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 9 of 267 (793362)
10-26-2016 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
10-26-2016 12:10 PM


Re: To Get Started...
Phat writes:

Right away Paul talks of something we receive from Jesus.


No, he says that HE (and the other apostles) received "grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith."

"We" are not all apostles. "We" are called by the apostles to obey. How can "we" obey without doing?

Phat writes:

The emphasis is never on what we do in and of ourselves but rather what we either do for Christ or what He does through us.


You're imagining that emphasis.

Phat writes:

Paul does speak of what we must do, but he says we cannot do it by ourselves. We need God in us.


Again it comes back to what I have asked you many times: What does it mean to believe in somebody? Does it just mean believing that the messenger existed or does it mean believing in the message?

What does it mean to "have God in you"? Doesn't it mean to internalize the message?

If you internalize the message - i.e. if you DO what Jesus told you to do - you do "have God in you" whether you say, "Lord! Lord!" or not.

And if you DON'T do what Jesus told you to do, you DON'T "have God in you".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 10-26-2016 12:10 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 10-26-2016 5:30 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9753
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 10 of 267 (793371)
10-26-2016 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
10-26-2016 3:26 PM


Re: To Get Started...
ringo writes:

Does it just mean believing that the messenger existed or does it mean believing in the message?

You still dont get it. The messenger not only existed...He exists now.

Rom 9:31-33 writes:


Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

The metaphor of Jesus as the rock...the stone...and then Paul later calls us living stones. You seem to think that the source is unimportant...just as jar does. This is a mistake in that you think that it is we who determine our own inner peace.

Israel blew it. Period.

Rom 10:3 writes:

Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

By preaching that the source(GOD) is unimportant and that it is all about what we do you have eliminated the teaching concerning knowing God through Christ. You claim that GOD is unknowable and that even if He were around you may well have issues with Him. Like Israel, you are establishing your own righteousness.

To your credit, many Christians don't do enough while many others--non religious included--do far more human good in the world. I'll leave it up to God to judge the masses.

Paul seems to believe and preach that knowing Jesus is crucial.

Rom 10:9-12 writes:

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Now we know that faith without works is dead. Works are a part of the equation, to be sure.

But concerning the idea that the source is unimportant, consider Pauls quote:

Rom 11:18-19 writes:

You do not support the root, but the root supports you.


Our "root" is not "star stuff" as Sagan once suggested. Our root is our very Creator and the purpose He put within us. Love God. Love others. Its just that simple.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 10-26-2016 3:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 10-27-2016 11:51 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 11 of 267 (793389)
10-27-2016 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
10-26-2016 5:30 PM


Re: To Get Started...
Phat writes:

You still dont get it. The messenger not only existed...He exists now.


YOU don't get it. The messenger is irrelevant. Whether he exists now or whether he ever existed doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you believe about the messenger. HE wanted you to believe in the message.

Phat writes:

You seem to think that the source is unimportant...just as jar does. This is a mistake in that you think that it is we who determine our own inner peace.


I have never said any such thing. I say that we have to take responsibility. If we just sit around having faith, watching our fellow man suffer, we will never have inner peace.

It is not the faith that brings inner peace. The faith is supposed to produce the works. If there are no works, there is no real faith. Faith without works is dead.

And frankly, the inner peace is less important than the works.

Phat writes:

By preaching that the source(GOD) is unimportant and that it is all about what we do you have eliminated the teaching concerning knowing God through Christ.


You keep ignoring the question: What does it mean to "know God"? What does it mean to "have God in you"? What does it mean to "believe in God"?

How can you know God without doing what He wants you to do? How can you have God in you without doing what He wants you to do? How can you believe in God without doing what He wants you to do?

The DOING is the sign that your faith is real. It's the fruit that keeps your dead branch from being thrown into the fire. It's what distinguishes the sheep from the goats.

Phat writes:

Our root is our very Creator and the purpose He put within us.


You're twisting the metaphor. The root is not a source that gives the plant purpose. It's a part of the plant. The root nourished the plant and the plant nourished the root.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 10-26-2016 5:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 10-27-2016 11:12 PM ringo has responded
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 10-29-2016 4:29 PM ringo has responded
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 01-11-2017 12:15 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9753
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 12 of 267 (793390)
10-27-2016 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
10-24-2016 4:58 PM


Re: To Get Started...
But the authors (the early ones) did know when Jesus would return since Jesus told them he would return while the audience he was addressing were still alive.

This appears to be the God that you market...one who makes mistakes.

Lets see if Paul agrees with you.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 10-24-2016 4:58 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 10-27-2016 2:18 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 13 of 267 (793392)
10-27-2016 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
10-27-2016 12:43 PM


Re: To Get Started...
It's not what I market, it is what the Bible Stories assert Jesus said.

quote:
“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” - Matthew 24:34

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 10-27-2016 12:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 10-27-2016 11:08 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9753
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 14 of 267 (793400)
10-27-2016 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
10-27-2016 2:18 PM


Re: To Get Started...
There are many explanations for this. Lets see if any of them hold water.

`1)

Wycliffe writes:

Matt 24:32-36
This generation shall not pass away. To explain generation (genea) here as the lifetime of the disciples obligates one to seek the fulfillment of all these events by A.D. 70 AD. But that is manifestly impossible unless one spiritualizes the second coming of Christ. However, genea also can mean "race" or "family," and this yields good sense here. In spite of terrible persecution, the Jewish nation will not be exterminated, but will exist to share the blessings of the Millennial reign. In support of this view, Alford points out that Christians of ancient times continued to expect the Lord's coming even after the apostles and their contemporaries had passed away (New Testament for English Readers, p. 169). 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away. Cf. Rom 8:19-22; 1 Cor 7:31; Rev 21:1. The truth of these solemn predictions of Christ will not experience the slightest alteration. 36. The exact moment of fulfillment, however, lies in the authority of the Father alone (cf. Acts 1:7). No scheme of date-setting by men is possible.

2) The Dispensationalists believe that Jesus original mission was only for Israel and the Jewish people until after the Jewish people freely and adamantly rejected their messiah. At that point, salvation was open for everyone.(As you believe)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 10-27-2016 2:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 10-28-2016 9:56 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9753
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 15 of 267 (793401)
10-27-2016 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
10-27-2016 11:51 AM


Re: To Get Started...
You seem to think that the source is unimportant.

ringo writes:

I have never said any such thing.

(Yet if Jesus is God, the messenger is in fact the source)

The Greatest Commandment supports both of our views.

It supports my contention that the source(or messenger) is important.
(Love the Lord thy God will all thy heart, soul, mind,and strength)

And it supports yours:

Love your neighbor as yourself.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 10-27-2016 11:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 10-28-2016 11:48 AM Phat has responded

  
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