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Author Topic:   The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 226 of 262 (796957)
01-08-2017 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Phat
01-08-2017 2:04 PM


Re: Left Right Left
"Social justice" is an invention of Marxists, it is not Christian. Jesus says nothing about how nations are to be run, He addresses individuals, and yes as individuals we are to help the poor. The state is not addressed. The state is to be run by Law and that can be found in the OT.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by ringo, posted 01-09-2017 11:01 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 227 of 262 (796959)
01-08-2017 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Tangle
01-08-2017 7:51 AM


Re: False Idols
We know that you say that when there's a problem in the bible, it's not the bible that's wrong, it's our reading of it, but you know, repeted genocide is pretty hard to misinterpret.

Actually it's just a simple matter of logic and reading in context, as I keep saying, but leftist prejudice can make anything mean whatever it wants.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 228 of 262 (796960)
01-08-2017 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Modulous
01-07-2017 11:07 PM


Re: False Idols
No, He is a God of Law and Justice who punishes violations of the Moral Law.

Just like Allah.

Allah's "moral law" is killing infidels. There is no comparison. Context, logic, context, logic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Modulous, posted 01-07-2017 11:07 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Modulous, posted 01-08-2017 3:54 PM Faith has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 229 of 262 (796964)
01-08-2017 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
01-08-2017 3:28 PM


Re: False Idols
Allah's "moral law" is killing infidels.

Wrong. Allah/God's moral law is that you show them kindness and deal with them justly.

There is no comparison.

Wrong, they are very comparable.

Context, logic, context, logic.

Then stop ignoring the context or be charged with hypocrisy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 01-08-2017 3:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 01-08-2017 4:02 PM Modulous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 230 of 262 (796966)
01-08-2017 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Modulous
01-08-2017 3:54 PM


Re: False Idols
Yep, Leftists can say anything, redefine words to suit themselves, mangle logic beyond recognition, ignore context and of course accuse the opponent of all their own errors. It's very effective too. SIgh.

The Koran had to say a FEW nice-sounding things in order to deceive gullible people, however weirdly reduced to bits and bites, but read the whole damned thing in context for a change. And better yet, read the official books about Mohammed himself, whose life is really the standard for understanding the Koran.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Modulous, posted 01-08-2017 3:54 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Modulous, posted 01-08-2017 4:04 PM Faith has responded
 Message 233 by Modulous, posted 01-08-2017 4:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 231 of 262 (796967)
01-08-2017 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Faith
01-08-2017 4:02 PM


Re: False Idols
Yep, Leftists can say anything, redefine words to suit themselves, mangle logic beyond recognition, ignore context and of course accuse the opponent of all their own errors.

Deal with the context, hypocrite.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 01-08-2017 4:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Faith, posted 01-08-2017 4:11 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 232 of 262 (796968)
01-08-2017 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Modulous
01-08-2017 4:04 PM


Re: False Idols
Yep, Leftists can say anything, redefine words to suit themselves, mangle logic beyond recognition, ignore context and of course accuse the opponent of all their own errors.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Modulous, posted 01-08-2017 4:04 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 233 of 262 (796969)
01-08-2017 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Faith
01-08-2017 4:02 PM


Re: False Idols
The Koran had to say a FEW nice-sounding things in order to deceive gullible people, however weirdly reduced to bits and bites, but read the whole damned thing in context for a change.

The whole thing is the proposed word of God.

see Message 224 for the context you have not addressed.


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 Message 230 by Faith, posted 01-08-2017 4:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13031
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 234 of 262 (796994)
01-09-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Faith
01-08-2017 3:11 PM


Re: Left Right Left
Faith writes:

Jesus says nothing about how nations are to be run, He addresses individuals, and yes as individuals we are to help the poor.


He told us to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

Faith writes:

The state is not addressed.


In a democracy, the individuals ARE the state. We, the people, ARE Caesar. So yes, in a democracy we ARE responsible for social justice as a nation, not just as individuals.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Faith, posted 01-08-2017 3:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 01-09-2017 6:17 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 235 of 262 (797011)
01-09-2017 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by ringo
01-09-2017 11:01 AM


Re: Left Right Left
Oh Ringo, really. Why can't leftists think?

Rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's sounds to me like Jesus' distancing Himself from the things of government rather than saying anything about how government should be run. Come on, Ringo, this is OBVIOUS for pete's sake.

The state is not addressed.

In a democracy, the individuals ARE the state. We, the people, ARE Caesar. So yes, in a democracy we ARE responsible for social justice as a nation, not just as individuals.

As I said Jesus did not address the state, He did not address government at all. It doesn't matter what constitutes a particular kind of government Jesus did not address it. Jesus addressed us as individuals, period.

Oh please. Why do I have the job of answering this kind of nonsense while all the local leftists sit around and pretend it makes sense? Failure of logic, failure of reading in context - does that describe EVERYBODY here?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by ringo, posted 01-09-2017 11:01 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by GDR, posted 01-09-2017 8:27 PM Faith has responded
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 01-16-2017 10:49 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 236 of 262 (797018)
01-09-2017 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
01-09-2017 6:17 PM


Re: Left Right Left
Faith writes:

As I said Jesus did not address the state, He did not address government at all. It doesn't matter what constitutes a particular kind of government Jesus did not address it. Jesus addressed us as individuals, period.

Oh please. Why do I have the job of answering this kind of nonsense while all the local leftists sit around and pretend it makes sense? Failure of logic, failure of reading in context - does that describe EVERYBODY here?

C'mon Faith. That sounds like everybody is crazy except me. Maybe that should tell you something.

Talk about not looking at things in context.

Firstly Jesus was not under a government as we are governed. He was governed by foreign powers and a puppet government that was upheld by the foreign government. It is not comparable to our situation.

Secondly, what they did have was special interest groups with their individual political views which is as close as what we can get to our form of government. Jesus was critical of the Pharisees for their legalism. (IMHO fundamentalists are the modern day equivalent of the Pharisees.) He was critical of the revolutionists saying things like “those who live by the sword die by the sword”. Jesus was actually very political.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 01-09-2017 6:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 01-09-2017 10:08 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 237 of 262 (797022)
01-09-2017 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by GDR
01-09-2017 8:27 PM


Re: Left Right Left
Faith writes:

As I said Jesus did not address the state, He did not address government at all. It doesn't matter what constitutes a particular kind of government Jesus did not address it. Jesus addressed us as individuals, period.

Oh please. Why do I have the job of answering this kind of nonsense while all the local leftists sit around and pretend it makes sense? Failure of logic, failure of reading in context - does that describe EVERYBODY here?

C'mon Faith. That sounds like everybody is crazy except me. Maybe that should tell you something.

C'mon yourself. It tells me that I'm one of very few, or even a loner on some issues, in a bastion of leftists, atheists, liberals and liberal Christians. That's not "everybody," it's just everybody, or most everybody, here. And unfortunately the bastion doesn't very often break ranks to support a conservative no matter how deserved. They'll give a ton of cheers if you apologize for a mistake, but their lips are sealed if you give a good argument, or if one of their club says something obviously wrong against me. (And I know from experience that just saying such a thing is going to draw a barrage of denials and insults).

Talk about not looking at things in context.

And of course you can't see straight either.

Firstly Jesus was not under a government as we are governed. He was governed by foreign powers and a puppet government that was upheld by the foreign government. It is not comparable to our situation.

What on earth does this have to do with His teachings? He addressed NOTHING having to do with government, NOTHING. Except to put HImself apart from it, such as by making it clear that His own government, His kingdom, was "not of this world."

Secondly, what they did have was special interest groups with their individual political views which is as close as what we can get to our form of government.

Huh? And so what?

Jesus was critical of the Pharisees for their legalism.

Yes, but more accurately for their misrepresentations of God's Law, to which they had added a pile of man-originated traditions that put the people in bondage.

(IMHO fundamentalists are the modern day equivalent of the Pharisees.)

There are some fundamentalist groups that could be guilty of that charge, but since I know you are including the entirety of Bible-believing Protestant Christianity, you are very wrong. Pharisaism makes works the way to salvation; Protestant Christianity specifically, vociferously, heatedly and nearly endlessly, preaches salvation by faith and not works. I don't think you understand what Pharisaism is.

He was critical of the revolutionists saying things like “those who live by the sword die by the sword”. Jesus was actually very political.

By denying He was political He was political? Wowsy wow.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9314
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 238 of 262 (797088)
01-11-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
10-27-2016 11:51 AM


He completes the work in us
ringo writes:

You seem to be obsessed with the idea of somebody else doing it for you - or to you.

Indeed this is one of the contentions that we argue about.

When Paul addressed the Philippians, he said

Phil 1:3-6 writes:

I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

This does not sound like they were stuck building their own Ark...at least not without some guidance and help. Allow me to ask you a question. You say there is no God. It then would follow that you preach that it is what we do that counts....not so much what we believe. While i won't argue against the idea that works are an integral part of ones purpose and meaning in life, I will forever challenge your atheistic notions. What do you have against belief, apart from the unpardonable sin known as lack of evidence?
ringo writes:

The root is not a source that gives the plant purpose. It's a part of the plant. The root nourished the plant and the plant nourished the root.

The root(Jesus) nourishes our soul...and we willingly and dutifully do good works so as to nourish Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 10-27-2016 11:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 01-16-2017 10:52 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9314
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 239 of 262 (797126)
01-12-2017 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
10-29-2016 11:25 AM


Re: Pauls Belief
jar writes:

I don't think anyone thinks Paul was marketing anything he believed was made up but the fact is that Paul never met Jesus or had any connection to Jesus and that the tale of his conversion as told in the Bible stories changed over time and depending on the audience.

If so, it would seem that you essentially believe that studying the Bible is all about studying writings of what early people wrote intended for other early audiences and that the modern audience is entirely out of the loop. True?

In other words, is it a fact that nobody alive on the planet today has "met Jesus"? I would argue that the results are only conclusive if hard evidence is the main standard.

My argument all along has centered on faith and belief rather than evidence.

Heb 11:1-6
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Evidence is not the only standard. The evidence is, in fact, the works themselves. Which lends support to your whole "Christianity is about what you do" argument.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 10-29-2016 11:25 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 01-12-2017 8:37 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28841
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 240 of 262 (797128)
01-12-2017 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
01-12-2017 8:09 AM


Re: Pauls Belief
Phat writes:

jar writes:

I don't think anyone thinks Paul was marketing anything he believed was made up but the fact is that Paul never met Jesus or had any connection to Jesus and that the tale of his conversion as told in the Bible stories changed over time and depending on the audience.

If so, it would seem that you essentially believe that studying the Bible is all about studying writings of what early people wrote intended for other early audiences and that the modern audience is entirely out of the loop. True?

In other words, is it a fact that nobody alive on the planet today has "met Jesus"? I would argue that the results are only conclusive if hard evidence is the main standard.

Almost correct. There is no loop.

People today can learn from things written in the past but that does not mean any of that material was written for people other than the immediate audience at the time.

Phat writes:

My argument all along has centered on faith and belief rather than evidence.

Heb 11:1-6
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Evidence is not the only standard. The evidence is, in fact, the works themselves. Which lends support to your whole "Christianity is about what you do" argument.

But all of the evidence shows that "Christians" do not behave differently than any other demographic; they do not behave differently than Muslims or Buddhist or atheists or Taoists or animists or Hindus or agnostics or Satanists or Jews or ...


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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