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Author Topic:   The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 241 of 262 (797130)
01-12-2017 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by jar
01-12-2017 8:37 AM


Re: Pauls Belief
But all of the evidence shows that "Christians" do not behave differently than any other demographic; they do not behave differently than Muslims or Buddhist or atheists or Taoists or animists or Hindus or agnostics or Satanists or Jews or ...

Unfortunately you are right. I would argue, however, that we can behave better. It takes work, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 01-12-2017 8:37 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 242 of 262 (797136)
01-12-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by jar
01-12-2017 8:37 AM


Re: Pauls Belief
jar writes:

But all of the evidence shows that "Christians" do not behave differently than any other demographic; they do not behave differently than Muslims or Buddhist or atheists or Taoists or animists or Hindus or agnostics or Satanists or Jews or ...

What evidence would that be?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 01-12-2017 8:37 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by jar, posted 01-12-2017 3:20 PM GDR has responded
 Message 250 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2017 4:06 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 243 of 262 (797138)
01-12-2017 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by GDR
01-12-2017 12:59 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
Divorce rates, crime rates, gluttony, bigotry, homosexuality, vulgarity, taking the Lords name in vain, murder ... every measurable statistic known shows that Christians behave no differently than any other demographic.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by GDR, posted 01-12-2017 12:59 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by GDR, posted 01-12-2017 6:44 PM jar has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 244 of 262 (797141)
01-12-2017 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by jar
01-12-2017 3:20 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
That's still just your assertion. Where is the evidence and statistics you talk about?

How about looking at the statistics of how much foreign aid or local charity is done by Christians compared to any other demographic.

For example in your country.

quote:
Once again, the biggest givers are found to be concentrated in “Bible Belt” states in the South or where Mormons make up a large portion of the population.
On the other hand, scant-giving households are heavily concentrated in relatively wealthy and secular New England.

quote:
This effect holds up not only across states but also in major cities. For instance, denizens of Salt Lake City, Birmingham, Memphis, Nashville, and Atlanta donate from 4 to 6 percent of their discretionary income to charity, while counterparts in Boston, Hartford, and Providence average just 2 percent. Silicon Valley is legendary for its wealth, yet lags badly in charity—the Chronicle data show San Jose and San Francisco falling near the bottom among our 50 biggest cities, giving away just 2.2 percent and 2.4 percent, respectively, of their income.

Here is the site those quotes are from.
Who Gives Most to Charity


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by jar, posted 01-12-2017 3:20 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 01-12-2017 7:34 PM GDR has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 245 of 262 (797143)
01-12-2017 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by GDR
01-12-2017 6:44 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
Yet those figures pale compared to the foreign aid supported by taxes from all demographics and in fact are still simply unsupported assertions. There are people who are not Christians that pass funding through Christian organizations.

However even if that were true it still does not show that Christians behave differently than any other demographic and is really telling that you would even select that as support. Funding for charities is not recorded based on the religious beliefs of the donor. For example, I personally donate to charities irrespective of whether or not they are religious organizations. So do other people.

But look around. There is no way to tell a Christian from any other group based on behavior.

Christians lie.

Christian commit murder.

Christians steal.

Christians fornicate.

Christians divorce.

Christians have affairs.

Christians molest children.

Christians start fights.

Christians behave just like anyone else.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by GDR, posted 01-12-2017 6:44 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by GDR, posted 01-12-2017 7:59 PM jar has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 246 of 262 (797144)
01-12-2017 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
01-12-2017 7:34 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
I have provided statistical data from a non-Christian source and you call them "unsupported assertions".

Here is what you have posted.

jar writes:

But all of the evidence shows that "Christians" do not behave differently than any other demographic; they do not behave differently than Muslims or Buddhist or atheists or Taoists or animists or Hindus or agnostics or Satanists or Jews or ...

You claim all the evidence supports what you say.

You then said:

jar writes:

Divorce rates, crime rates, gluttony, bigotry, homosexuality, vulgarity, taking the Lords name in vain, murder ... every measurable statistic known shows that Christians behave no differently than any other demographic.

Note you said "every" available statistic.

I asked for you to show us the evidence in the first post and the statistics in the second and all you do is make further assertions, and accuse me of an unsupported assertion after I actually provided a non-biased source which you simply debunk because it doesn't agree with your assertion.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 01-12-2017 7:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2017 12:48 AM GDR has responded
 Message 251 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 6:53 AM GDR has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9458
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 247 of 262 (797148)
01-13-2017 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by GDR
01-12-2017 7:59 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
I have provided statistical data from a non-Christian source and you call them "unsupported assertions"

Your stats might be more impressive if they were not simply South + Utah vs North. I don't think you've demonstrated much. Beyond that, many church goers participate in tithing which surely counts as part of their giving, but which only partially goes to real charitable causes rather than keeping the church light bill paid, and the pastor's car full of gas.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by GDR, posted 01-12-2017 7:59 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by GDR, posted 01-13-2017 2:08 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 249 by GDR, posted 01-13-2017 2:10 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 248 of 262 (797150)
01-13-2017 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by NoNukes
01-13-2017 12:48 AM


Re: Pauls Belief
double post

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2017 12:48 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 249 of 262 (797151)
01-13-2017 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by NoNukes
01-13-2017 12:48 AM


Re: Pauls Belief
NN writes:

Your stats might be more impressive if they were not simply South + Utah vs North. I don't think you've demonstrated much. Beyond that, many church goers participate in tithing which surely counts as part of their giving, but which only partially goes to real charitable causes rather than keeping the church light bill paid, and the pastor's car full of gas.

Maybe, but this was also part of that same study.

quote:
Finer-grain numbers from the PSID show that the faithful don’t just give to religious causes; they are also much more likely to give to secular causes than the non-religious. Among Americans who report that they “never” attend religious services, just less than half give any money at all to secular causes. People who attend services 27-52 times per year, though, give money to secular charities in two thirds of all cases. (See page 1138.)

My main point however was not to even say that jar was wrong, but simply that he makes assertions, saying that his point is backed up by all statistics as well as the evidence without providing either and we should just automatically agree with him. Even after I pointed it out he did exactly the same thing in his subsequent post. He is constantly criticizing other posters for less than that.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2017 12:48 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4551
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 250 of 262 (797154)
01-13-2017 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by GDR
01-12-2017 12:59 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
GDR writes:

What evidence would that be?

Well there's plenty of it out there if you look. If Christians actually lived their lives the way Jesus commanded them to, you expect to see an enormous difference in attitude and actions between a godless heathen like me and a pious prayer machine like you. But in fact, apart from the obviously religious rituals you undertake and I don't, I'd expect there to be little, in any difference in our moral behaviour. And this is what we find.

quote:
Researchers asked 1,252 adults of different religious and political backgrounds in the United States and Canada to record the good and bad deeds they committed, witnessed, learned about or were the target of throughout the day.

The goal of the study was to assess how morality plays out in everyday life for different people, said Dan Wisneski, a professor of psychology at Saint Peter's University in Jersey City, New Jersey, who helped conduct the study during his tenure at the University of Illinois at Chicago. [8 Ways Religion Impacts Your Life]

The study's findings may come as a shock to those who think religious or political affiliationhelps dictate a person's understanding of right and wrong.

Wisneski and his fellow researchers found that religious and nonreligious people commit similar numbers of moral acts. The same was found to be true for people on both ends of the political spectrum. And regardless of their political or religious leanings, participants were all found to be more likely to report committing, or being the target of, a moral act rather than an immoral act. They were also much more likely to report having heard about immoral acts rather than moral acts.


http://www.livescience.com/...eligion-political-beliefs.html

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by GDR, posted 01-12-2017 12:59 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 251 of 262 (797155)
01-13-2017 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by GDR
01-12-2017 7:59 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
And I pointed out that your post did not show that Christians behaved differently than any others.

Stop and think.

How does the study you used show that Christians are more charitable than others?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by GDR, posted 01-12-2017 7:59 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 12:51 PM jar has responded
 Message 257 by GDR, posted 01-13-2017 8:20 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 252 of 262 (797163)
01-13-2017 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by jar
01-13-2017 6:53 AM


Re: Pauls Belief
tangle writes:

If Christians actually lived their lives the way Jesus commanded them to, you expect to see an enormous difference in attitude and actions between a godless heathen like me and a pious prayer machine like you. But in fact, apart from the obviously religious rituals you undertake and I don't, I'd expect there to be little, in any difference in our moral behavior.

This brings up our ongoing argument about whether behavior counts or whether belief and trust count more.

jar writes:

Stop and think.

In reformed Judaism, behavior would count more than it would in evangelical Christianity.

Perhaps the question is what value do belief and trust have (if any) over behavior?

Also...why is it that belief and trust...if embraced, do not lead to better behavior.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 6:53 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2017 1:02 PM Phat has responded
 Message 256 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 3:20 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4551
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 253 of 262 (797166)
01-13-2017 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Phat
01-13-2017 12:51 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
Phat writes:

This brings up our ongoing argument about whether behavior counts or whether belief and trust count more.

Not really, I was anwering the question about whether Christians are different to other people. On average, they're no better, no worse. Which shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone really.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 12:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 1:08 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 254 of 262 (797168)
01-13-2017 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Tangle
01-13-2017 1:02 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
And my point was that the only discernable difference is in the area of belief and trust.

Which may mean nothing to someone who believes that God does not exist.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2017 1:02 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2017 1:48 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4551
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 255 of 262 (797171)
01-13-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
01-13-2017 1:08 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
Phat writes:

And my point was that the only discernable difference is in the area of belief and trust. Which may mean nothing to someone who believes that God does not exist.

Yes, as we can't see any difference between a believer and a non-believer's behaviours then the only difference is the beliefs themselves.

I really recommend spending some time in a mental hospital if you want to see how what goes on in someone's mind can be totally imaginary, regardless of what the person themselves believe. I've personally met 4 Jesus Christs and one (white) Nelson Mandela. You are deluded, it's just a much more common and minor kind of delusion.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 1:08 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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