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Author Topic:   The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 46 of 267 (793595)
11-02-2016 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
11-02-2016 1:32 PM


Re: What Paul actually said.
I contend that Paul explains that doing will never get you closer to Heaven.
Do you have any Scripture references where Paul says something along those lines explicitly?
Like, rather than talking about the importance of faith, he talks about how unimportant it is to do things? Or how they can't help you?
It seems like every time I get into the Faith vs Works debate, the only argument for how worthless works are is arguments about how important faith is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 11-02-2016 1:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 47 of 267 (793599)
11-02-2016 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by New Cat's Eye
11-02-2016 1:21 PM


Re: Works vs Grace
CatSci writes:
Out of curiosity, do you think that James was Jesus' brother?
LOL
I'm not even sure that James was James. Let's be honest. We really have almost no clue who wrote any of the material included in either the Old or New Testament.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-02-2016 1:21 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 11-02-2016 7:10 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 48 of 267 (793611)
11-02-2016 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
11-02-2016 8:56 AM


Re: Works vs Grace
Phat writes:
Paul bought up faith credited as righteousness and that works appear to be an obligation rather than a justification.
I don't think I've ever said that works are a justification. The doctrine was that "by grace are ye saved through faith" - i.e. faith is the justification. BUT, as I keep trying to tell you, real faith is manifested by works. Works are the only outward sign of real faith. If you don't do the works, you ain't got the faith, no matter what you profess. The only real value of the faith is the works that it produces.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 11-02-2016 8:56 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 11-02-2016 7:02 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 267 (793629)
11-02-2016 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ringo
11-02-2016 3:18 PM


Re: Works vs Grace
ringo writes:
The only real value of the faith is the works that it produces.
This has been a debate for centuries.
The Council of Trent on Justification (Canon 12) states: If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy [grace], which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence [faith] alone that justifies us, let him be anathema [cursed].
Islam concurs.
To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward (Surah 5:9)
Paul has different ideas.
Eph 2:1-10 writes:
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
In the Bible, when Paul speaks of works, he often refers to the things produced by someone’s effort or life. There is a connection with the flesh. The flesh works hard to achieve results, going its own way, doing what it wants -- always producing fleshly results stemming from self-fulfillment. We delude ourselves into believing that our human accomplishments equal God’s standard for holiness.
The argument here is whether some guy off the street with no desire to know Christ or change his ways can attain salvation merely by rolling up his sleeves and feeding people.
Lets take a hypothetical guy. He could care less about religion. He likes to drink---maybe a bit too much. He does have a conscience, however...and feels uneasy when he sees people hungrier and worse off than he is.
So he rolls up his sleeves. He works to help others. He is still stubborn concerning organized religion...and rightly so.
He professes atheism. His only guidance comes from his own inner conscience.
Anyone who approaches him to ask him to accept Jesus are challenged and told to take a hike.
The question? How does God see this child? Does it matter if he dies without accepting Jesus Christ?
Perhaps your argument is that through his works he already has accepted Jesus...through accepting the challenge of the message.
My only question is why doesn't he accept that the messenger may well be alive and desiring communion with him?
As to his eternal destiny, I won't worry. Promise.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 11-02-2016 3:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 11-03-2016 11:43 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 267 (793630)
11-02-2016 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
11-02-2016 2:01 PM


Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
Let's be honest. We really have almost no clue who wrote any of the material included in either the Old or New Testament.
Some claim otherwise. Personally I feel that teaching what you say can be a faith killer. If people had no words to trust, no certainty of a messiah or a God or even so much as a spaghetti monster...how can they be encouraged?
Simply telling them to go feed people or take out the neighbors trash seems rather limited, but perhaps GOD if GOD exists can and will reach them.
I don't like your idea of throwing Jesus away, nor throwing the Bible away and simply trusting the belief that God chose everyone.
The reason is because I believe that Jesus is the way to God.
You seem to think that obeying our own inner charge and conscience is enough.
Maybe after all these years I might agree with you---but I will have to pray about it.
After all, you wouldn't want to be teaching something that may end up hurting people.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 11-02-2016 2:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 11-02-2016 7:40 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 51 of 267 (793634)
11-02-2016 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
11-02-2016 7:10 PM


Re: Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
Phat writes:
Some claim otherwise. Personally I feel that teaching what you say can be a faith killer. If people had no words to trust, no certainty of a messiah or a God or even so much as a spaghetti monster...how can they be encouraged?
Simply telling them to go feed people or take out the neighbors trash seems rather limited, but perhaps GOD if GOD exists can and will reach them.
Yet that is exactly what Jesus said to do and did; feed the hungry, heal the sick, shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, comfort the sorrowful, protect the helpless ...
Phat writes:
I don't like your idea of throwing Jesus away, nor throwing the Bible away and simply trusting the belief that God chose everyone.
The reason is because I believe that Jesus is the way to God.
Okay, but what does that even mean? How is Jesus the way to anything and why should anyone even care?
Phat writes:
You seem to think that obeying our own inner charge and conscience is enough.
Maybe after all these years I might agree with you---but I will have to pray about it.
After all, you wouldn't want to be teaching something that may end up hurting people.
How can helping people hurt people? How can bringing in the neighbors trash can hurt anyone. How can returning the shopping carts hurt anyone? How can holding a door open hurt anyone? How can getting a package down off the high shelf hurt someone? How can kneeling down to be at eye level when talking with kids hurt anyone?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 11-02-2016 7:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 11-03-2016 8:08 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 267 (793661)
11-03-2016 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
11-02-2016 7:40 PM


Re: Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
jar writes:
How is Jesus the way to anything and why should anyone even care?
John 14:5-10 writes:
Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered,
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
  • Thomas wanted to know where Jesus was going. Jesus answered him and said that no one comes to God except through Jesus.
  • Jesus says that it is the Father living in Him who is doing His work.
  • Is the concept of GOD being in someone that hard to grasp?
    jar writes:
    How can helping people hurt people? How can bringing in the neighbors trash can hurt anyone. How can returning the shopping carts hurt anyone? How can holding a door open hurt anyone? How can getting a package down off the high shelf hurt someone? How can kneeling down to be at eye level when talking with kids hurt anyone?
    How can believing that the Creator of all seen and unseen wants to have communion with your soul be a bad thing?
    How can asking Jesus Christ into your heart be a bad thing?
    How can praying for others hurt anyone?
    How can praying with other believers hurt anyone?
    How can praying with unbelievers who allow you to pray with them be a bad thing? (Especially if you also fixed them a sandwich)
    John 14:16-18 writes:
    And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
    How can it hurt to accept the Spirit of truth?
    What did Jesus mean when He said that the world neither sees nor knows this Spirit?
    Edited by Phat, : spelling
    Edited by Phat, : format

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 51 by jar, posted 11-02-2016 7:40 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 53 by jar, posted 11-03-2016 9:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 55 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-03-2016 12:43 PM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 53 of 267 (793665)
    11-03-2016 9:21 AM
    Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
    11-03-2016 8:08 AM


    Re: Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
    Phat writes:
    Thomas wanted to know where Jesus was going. Jesus answered him and said that no one comes to God except through Jesus.
    Jesus says that it is the Father living in Him who is doing His work.
    Is the concept of GOD being in someone that hard to grasp?
    Yes, it is not just hard to grasp it is meaningless.
    Phat writes:
    How can believing that the Creator of all seen and unseen wants to have communion with your soul be a bad thing?
    How can asking Jesus Christ into your heart be a bad thing?
    How can praying for others hurt anyone?
    How can praying with other believers hurt anyone?
    How can praying with unbelievers who allow you to pray with them be a bad thing? (Especially if you also fixed them a sandwich)
    And no one said they must be bad but what good do they do?
    What the hell does "ask Jesus into your heart" even mean? How can any of those things help?
    Phat writes:
    How can it hurt to accept the Spirit of truth?
    What did Jesus mean when He said that the world neither sees nor knows this Spirit?
    I have no idea what it even means "to accept the Spirit of truth".
    Note that the author of John does not provide an answer or meaning either.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by Phat, posted 11-03-2016 8:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 54 of 267 (793673)
    11-03-2016 11:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
    11-02-2016 7:02 PM


    Re: Works vs Grace
    Phat writes:
    The question? How does God see this child? Does it matter if he dies without accepting Jesus Christ?
    Matthew 25.
    Phat writes:
    My only question is why doesn't he accept that the messenger may well be alive and desiring communion with him?
    What would that add?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 49 by Phat, posted 11-02-2016 7:02 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 57 by Phat, posted 11-03-2016 11:44 PM ringo has replied

      
    New Cat's Eye
    Inactive Member


    Message 55 of 267 (793680)
    11-03-2016 12:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
    11-03-2016 8:08 AM


    Re: Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
    I contend that Paul explains that doing will never get you closer to Heaven.
    Do you have any Scripture references where Paul says something along those lines explicitly?
    Phat has acknowledged this reply
    Is that a "No"?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by Phat, posted 11-03-2016 8:08 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 56 by Phat, posted 11-03-2016 11:28 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 56 of 267 (793688)
    11-03-2016 11:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 55 by New Cat's Eye
    11-03-2016 12:43 PM


    Re: Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
    A few come to mind.
    Ephesians 2:8-10 writes:
    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.
    Gal 2:15-16 writes:
    We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
    Romans 11:6 writes:
    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO MORE GRACE: otherwise work is no more work. If salvation comes by works, then it is NOT by God’s grace anymore.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-03-2016 12:43 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-04-2016 1:05 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 57 of 267 (793689)
    11-03-2016 11:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
    11-03-2016 11:43 AM


    Re: Works vs Grace
    My only question is why doesn't he accept that the messenger may well be alive and desiring communion with him?
    ringo writes:
    What would that add?
    I dunno...lets ask Jesus...
    John 17:13-21 writes:
    "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
    20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one,

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 54 by ringo, posted 11-03-2016 11:43 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 62 by ringo, posted 11-05-2016 11:42 AM Phat has replied

      
    LamarkNewAge
    Member (Idle past 738 days)
    Posts: 2236
    Joined: 12-22-2015


    Message 58 of 267 (793699)
    11-04-2016 1:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
    11-03-2016 11:28 PM


    Re: Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
    Phat has quoted multiple verses.
    quote:
    [Phat post #56]
    Ephesians 2:8-10 writes:
    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.
    Gal 2:15-16 writes:
    We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
    Romans 11:6 writes:
    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO MORE GRACE: otherwise work is no more work. If salvation comes by works, then it is NOT by God’s grace anymore.
    Then
    quote:
    [Phat in an earlier response to me]
    Galatians 5:5
    5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love.
    NRSV
    Let me take Galatians 2:15-16 first as it leads to a very important issue that must be considered about "the law" and how some Mosaic Law commands transferred into vice lists plus the foundational directive to overseas communities of Acts 15.
    First, understand that most scholars think that the Galatians controversy, (the subject of the entire book) over Jewish Christians and how their following of the law is considered appropriate in the New Testament economy of "salvation by grace" alone, was referring back to the events around the months of the Apostolic Council of circa 50 A.D. (or a year or so earlier). There is a difference of opinion. (Galatians was written the mid-late 40s according to some, such as F. F. Bruce and most British scholars, or the late 50s, as most scholars worldwide think it was written). Most British scholars think Galatians was written before the (Acts 15) Apostolic Council (thus it becomes the earliest book written that we have in the entire New Testament as opposed to 1 Thessalonians being such) and then refers to earlier events from after chapter 10 and before chapter 14.
    quote:
    Galatians 2:8-16
    For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas [ Peter] and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.
    Paul Opposes Cephas
    11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
    14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
    15 We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
    NIV
    Most scholars verses 8 to 10 as referring to the time just after the Acts 15 Apostolic Council ended.
    You will see that the council (see Acts 15:20-29) kept certain aspects of both the written Mosaic Law and the Oral Law (not written in the Bible but later preserved in the Mishnah of the Talmud), though it was seen as a new post-Christian command and no longer necessarily "The Law" though that depends on perspective.
    Don't forget that James lead the council. He was the blood brother of Jesus according to the vast majority of scholars. James leadership is Biblical.
    See these quotes of the leading historian Steven Mason in his Early Christian Reader, as he annotates the text of the Acts of the Apostles. verses 12:17, 15:19, and 15:13 have subscripted reference letters that lead to these obversations.
    quote:
    p.489
    [15:19 note] James therefore has the power to preside over the apostles. See note to 15:13
    ....
    p488
    [15:13 note]
    as 12:17 suggested, Jesus' brother James has quietly assumed a leading role in the young church. See notes to 12:17, 21:18.
    ....
    p.483
    [12:17]
    His rise to a leading position in the church (see also 15:13, 19, 21:17) is not documented.
    We know what "James" also said in James 2:26 of the Bible. I'll quote it later - I promise!
    Lets look at other quotes of yours Phat.
    quote:
    Ephesians 2:8-10 writes:
    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.
    ....
    Romans 11:6 writes:
    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO MORE GRACE: otherwise work is no more work. If salvation comes by works, then it is NOT by God’s grace anymore.
    Now here is James 2:26, as I promised.
    quote:
    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    NKJV
    Phat quoted this in an earlier response to me.
    quote:
    Galatians 5:5
    5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love.
    NRSV
    But see Romans 2:25-29
    quote:
    Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So, if those who are uncircumcised keep the requirements of the law, will not their uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you that have the written code and circumcision but break the law. 28 For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. 29 Rather, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heartit is spiritual and not literal. Such a person receives praise not from others but from God.
    NRSV
    Paul circumcised a Jewish Christian in Acts 16, which the (earlier chapter 15) Apostolic Council did NOT refer to (it was about requirements for gentiles). James seems to have been strongly supportive of circumcising Jewish Christians, and they existed for another 400 years before being killed off by the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.
    Jesus seems to have appointed James as the leader.
    There were differences of opinion back then (between Paul and James), but most of it was a matter of perspective and terminology. There was a legitimate difference of opinion as to whether one should be circumcised or not - perhaps the fear of James was that eventually more and more of the commands would be dropped if a more Pauline type of denomination ended up severely outnumbering the Jewish Christian type of denomination.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by Phat, posted 11-03-2016 11:28 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by Phat, posted 11-04-2016 1:19 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 59 of 267 (793700)
    11-04-2016 1:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 58 by LamarkNewAge
    11-04-2016 1:05 PM


    Re: Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
    Most teachers whom I study with fail to see your vague conclusion.
    Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles. James?
    James 1:1
    James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
    To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
    Two different audiences. Of course the message will differ.
    There was a legitimate difference of opinion as to whether one should be circumcised or not - perhaps the fear of James was that eventually more and more of the commands would be dropped if a more Pauline type of denomination ended up severely outnumbering the Jewish Christian type of denomination.
    I can agree that the fear was probably well founded. Its the same fear we feel today when it is suggested that everyone is saved and that atheists will go to heaven.(without acknowledgment of the Holy Spirit within)
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-04-2016 1:05 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 60 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-04-2016 6:39 PM Phat has replied

      
    LamarkNewAge
    Member (Idle past 738 days)
    Posts: 2236
    Joined: 12-22-2015


    Message 60 of 267 (793713)
    11-04-2016 6:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
    11-04-2016 1:19 PM


    Re: Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
    quote:
    Most teachers whom I study with fail to see your vague conclusion.
    Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles. James?
    James 1:1
    James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
    To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
    Two different audiences. Of course the message will differ.
    I assume you are referring to the issue of there being a Jewish Christian denomination of James and a Pauline Christian denomination of Paul?
    I'll get around to agreeing with you that too much is made of the disagreements behind Paul and James, Peter, etc., but first the actual issue.
    Lets look at the term used in Galatians. (I'll start by quoting from a source that I consider quite dishonest and deceptive on this issue, but the first 3 paragraphs will be quoted regardless)
    quote:
    Judaizers
    Those who adopted Jewish religious practices or sought to influence others to do so. TheGreek verb ioudaizo [Ioudai?zw] ("to judaize") appears only once in theSeptuagint ( Esther8:17 ) and once in the New Testament ( Gal 2:14 ). In theSeptuagint this verb is used in relation to the Gentiles in Persia who adopted Jewishpractices in order to avoid the consequences of Esther's decree ( Esther 8:13 ), whichpermitted Jews to avenge the wrongs committed against them. The Septuagint not only uses ioudaizo[Ioudai?zw]to translate the Hebrew mityahadim ("to become a Jew"), but adds thatthese Gentiles were circumcised.
    In Galatians 2:14 it means to "live like Jews" (RSV, neb, NASB, Phillips),"follow Jewish customs" (NIV), or "live by the Jewish law"(Barclay). The context for this reference is the episode in Antioch when Paul condemnsPeter's withdrawal from table fellowship with Gentile Christians. Peter's actions areviewed by Paul as a serious compromise of the gospel of salvation by grace through faithalone, lending support to the position that sought to impose Jewish ceremonial law on theGentiles. Thus, Paul interprets Peter's withdrawal in terms of its effect in compellingGentile Christians to live like Jews.
    The term "Judaizer" has come to be used in theological parlance to describethe opponents of Paul and Barnabas at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) and those who soughtto preach "another gospel" in the churches of Galatia ( Galatians 2:4 Galatians 2:12 ; 6:12 ; cf. Php 3:2 ). In thissense, "Judaizers" refers to Jewish Christians who sought to induce Gentiles toobserve Jewish religious customs: to "judaize." It appears that theseindividuals agreed with much of the apostolic kerygma but sought to regulate the admissionof Gentiles into the covenant people of God through circumcision and the keeping of theceremonial law. Insisting that "Unless you are circumcised you cannot besaved" ( Acts15:1 ), these "believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees" ( Acts 15:5 ) posed aserious threat to the gospel of grace and the uNIVersality of the Christian mission.
    Who Were Judaizers? Biblical Meaning and Definition
    Don't be deceived by what this source says about food laws (in several places) and their sly slight of hand in using the term "ceremonial law" to refer to dietary restrictions. They twist the heck out of the issue.
    The issue is circumcision (and also animal sacrifices though it isn't explicitly mentioned) essentially.
    In Philippians 3, Paul said this.
    quote:
    Philippians 3:2-8
    Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh! 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God[d] and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh 4 even though I, too, have reason for confidence in the flesh.
    If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.
    7 Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ. 8 More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord
    NRSV
    Those who promote circumcision are the dogs (Jews took to calling gentiles dogs at times).
    Paul attacked Peter as one of the dogs I guess.
    Even a 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia (ironically) admits that Peter's followers were referred to as one of these. The article is long but notice that Peter/Cephas is admitted to be a judaizer.
    quote:
    After the foregoing events the Judaizers could do little mischief in Syria. But they could carry their agitation to the distant churches founded by St. Paul, where the facts were less well known; and this they attempted to do. The two Epistles to the Corinthians give good reason to believe that they were at work at Corinth. The party or rather faction of Cephas (1 Corinthians 1:12) very probably consisted of Judaizers. They do not seem, however, to have gone beyond belittling St. Paul's authority and person, and sowing distrust towards him (cf. 1 Corinthians 9:1-5; 2 Corinthians 11:5-12; 12:11-12; 1:17-20; 10:10-13). For while he has much to say in his own defence, he does not attack the views of the Judaizers, as he would certainly have done had they been openly preached. His two letters and his subsequent visit to Corinth put an end to the party's machinations. In the meantime (supposing Galatians to have been written soon after 1 and 2 Corinthians as it very probably was) Judaizing emissaries had penetrated into the Galatian churches, whether North or South Galatian matters little here (see EPISTLE TO THE GALATIANS), and by their skillful maneuvers had almost succeeded in persuading the Galatians, or at any rate many of them, into accepting circumcision. As at Corinth they attacked St. Paul's authority and person. He was only a secondary Apostle, subordinate to the Twelve, from whom he had received his instruction in the Faith and from whom he held his mission. To his teaching they opposed the practice and teaching of the pillars of the Church, of those who had conversed with the Lord (Galatians 2:2 sqq.).
    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Judaizers
    If you read the entire article, you will be reading out of date stuff (a bit biased too). But it is still helpful.
    This "Judaizing" issue was a big issue the orthodox attacked in the first 4 centuries. Church councils attacked Jewish Christians. Like the Council of Laodicea .
    The issue was forgotten. Here is a quote of F F Bruce from an unpublished book (but is found on computer software. He had a timeline of New testament interpretation.
    New Testament Interpretation | Logos Bible Software
    quote:
    5. THE TBINGEN SCHOOL
    A major event in the history of New Testament interpretation was the publication in 1831 in the Tbinger Zeitschrift fr Theologie of a long essay on the Christ party in the Corinthian church, by Ferdinand Christian Baur.?3#? The study of Paul’s correspondence convinced Baur that apostolic Christianity, far from being a unity, was marked by a deep cleavage between the church of Jerusalem and the Pauline mission. Whereas the church of Jerusalem, led by Peter and other original associates of Jesus, maintained a judaizing version of Christianity, Paul insisted that the gospel involved the abolition of Jewish legalism and particularism. In addition, the genuineness of Paul’s apostleship was questioned by the partisans of Jerusalem, and attempts were made to undermine his authority in the eyes of his converts. There is evidence enough of the sharpness of the conflict between the two sides in the Galatian and Corinthian letters of Paul especially. So thoroughly did this conflict dominate the apostolic age that those New Testament documents which do not reflect it, but present instead a picture of harmony between Peter and Paul, between the Jerusalem church and the Gentile mission, betray by that very fact their post-apostolic perspective. Baur indeed, as he followed what appeared to him to be the logic of the situation, came to ascribe a second-century date not only to Acts, from which the conflict has disappeared, but to the Gospels also. If the Gospels were second-century documents, their value as historical sources for the life and teaching of Jesus was slender indeed, but if the evidence pointed to this conclusion, the conclusion had to be accepted. In the years which followed the publication of his 1831 essay Baur was increasingly influenced by Hegel’s philosophy, which saw the historical process developing in a dialectical pattern of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. This pattern seemed to Baur to be exemplified by the course of early Christian history: the first-century thesis and antithesis of Jerusalem rigorism and Pauline proclamation of freedom from law being followed by the second-century synthesis in which these two were reconciled by compromise. But it must be borne in mind that the initial impetus to Baur’s interpretation of early Christian history came from his New Testament exegesis, not from Hegelianism. (Nor should it be overlooked that the historical process frequently does exhibit the features of Hegel’s dialectic, although it is never permissible to impose that dialectic on a historical sequence which does not correspond to it without distortion.) It is illicit, then, to dismiss Baur’s reconstruction of the New Testament record (or, for that matter, Wellhausen’s reconstruction of the Old Testament record)?3#? on the plea of Hegelian influence. Baur, in fact, drew attention to a crucial factor of apostolic history which had received insufficient attention from his predecessors, and he did so to such good effect as to leave a permanent mark on the subsequent course of New Testament interpretation.
    Like other pioneers, however, he stated the problems more convincingly than he proposed solutions to them. His second-century dating of the Gospels, for example, could not be maintained: the establishment of their first-century dating as against Baur’s arguments was one of the achievements of the Cambridge school. It might not be too inaccurate, says C. K. Barrett, to say that Baur asked the right questions, and that Lightfoot set them in the right historical perspective.?3#? Even the latest of the four Gospels cannot be dated after the beginning of the second century. But to say that is to say that the synthesis which Baur dated in the second century was already accomplished, or on the way to accomplishment, in the first: it was taking shape simultaneously with the thesis and antithesis. The task of the New Testament interpreter proved to be more complicated than Baur imaginednot only in the problems of the chronological development of the controversies but in their complexity and diversity. Paul had to contend with more than one kind of judaizing activity in his churches, and he had to contend at the same time with more than one variety of incipient Gnosticism. Not only so: at least one of these varieties of incipient Gnosticism was marked by prominent judaizing features. And these were only some of the human tensions within the primitive Christian church. In Baur’s day it was a sufficiently radical advance to recognize that such tensions existed at all; since his recognition that this was so, a good part of New Testament interpretation has had to do with the interplay of these tensions and subsequent dtentes
    Galatians is interesting.
    quote:
    EARLY CHRISTIAN READER
    STEVE MASON
    p.106
    Paul’s letter to the Christian groups of Galatia is fascinating for many reasons. First, it is his most passionate writing. He was on the brink of losing many of his converts to other Christian leaders. More than in any other letter except perhaps 2 Corinthians 10-13, therefore, we see him pleading, angry, and sarcastic-as a believable human being. Finally, it is in the course of his argument with judaizingChristians that Paul incidentally lays out a valuable (though still partial) chronological framework for his own career.
    Date
    Where to place Galatians among Paul’s letters may seem like a trivial issue, but it is all tied up with larger questions: about the possibility of harmonizing Paul’s letters with Acts, and about possible developments in Paul’s thinking
    ....
    pp.109-10
    Paul’s biographical argument (chs.1-2:10) is essentially that he could not have corrupted the apostles’ teaching because he did not get his gospel from them, but directly from Christ. He is independent of the Jerusalem church and, in any case, they acknowledged his gospel when he finally did have time to visit them (1:11-2:10).
    Now the part about where I think those go too far in exaggerating the differences between Paul and James.
    quote:
    Revelation 2:14
    14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the people of Israel, so that they would eat food sacrificed to idols and practice fornication.
    Robert Eisenman in his book on James the Just, made it sound like Paul was only being sarcastic when he said he was a vegetarian in 1 Corinthians 8:13.
    quote:
    p.260
    But who, as in the case of Balaam 'casting a net' or 'offence' (scandalon) in Revelation above, is Paul's strength a 'stumbling block' to or 'scandalizing' here? Who are these 'weak brothers' with their 'weak consciences' (always a euphemism for those observing the Law0, who make issues ...?
    p.261
    [quotes 1 Cor 8:4-7]
    A more ingenuous discussion of the subject of 'things sacrificed to an idol' could not be imagines. This has to be seen not only as a discussion of James' directives to overseas communities, enumerated in Acts and here, but also as a direct attack on James, even though it is delivered in the most evasive manner conceivable.
    Paul discusses this theme under the aegis of the two references, to 'love' and 'building' at the beginning of the chapter in I Corinthians 8:1-13. As he puts it, 'Knowledge" (Greek: Gnosis; at Qumran, Da'at), 'concerning things sacrificed to idols', 'puffs one up, but rather love builds up (8:1).
    ....
    A clearer attack on such a "puffed-up" individual with 'knowledge' - these same "those reputed to be something' or 'Pillars' in Galatians 2:2-9, among whom Paul places James - could not be imagined.
    ....
    p.263
    [then quotes Rom. 14:3-20]
    That Paul is discussing in this context the issue of 'consuming meat' is irrefutable. In doing so, he inadvertently expresses the opinion, clearly his own basic one. One believes he may eat all things; another, being weak, eats [only] vegetables. (13:2)
    That this is an attack on James seems almost irrefutable. That its author is cloaking the issue in an attempt to appear accommodating should also be clear. But the basic position here does, once again, redound to the situation of James' vegetarianism...
    ....
    So, once again, we may see that these traditions about James, preserved via Hegesippus in Eusebius, Jerome, and others, do, in fact, have substance behind them.
    ....
    p.264
    ...we have, in this passage in Paul's Letter to the Romans, collateral verification of James vegetarianism - insisted on in all the ancient sources...
    Paul was actually in agreement with the vegetarianism, contra Eisenmann.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by Phat, posted 11-04-2016 1:19 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 61 by Phat, posted 11-05-2016 8:07 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

      
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