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Author Topic:   The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 267 (794141)
11-10-2016 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
11-10-2016 11:00 AM


Re: Works vs Grace
ringo writes:
Phat writes:
The guy had no say when he switched sides. It was done to him and for him.
That's another empty belief.
What we do know is that the guy no longer power and authority when he switched sides.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 11-10-2016 11:00 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 11-11-2016 7:23 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 267 (794187)
11-11-2016 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
11-10-2016 11:26 AM


Magnifying Glass On Paul
It sometimes gets frustrating in the Faith & Belief forums arguing with those of you who do not buy what I am selling. I notice that the resistance upsets me---and perhaps it shouldn't.
Browsing old posts at other topics, I came across what you said to Faith in a Science Forum:
quote:
All that data really exists and will continue to exist regardless of any argument you could make and the DNA sequences can be physically compared to modern samples to show similarities.
The evidence may not impress you and that's fine. No one really much cares to impress you; yet the evidence and facts are out there and they still need to be explained. And that is what you need to do before you can convince anyone that the current theory is wrong.
Denial of the evidence will not work.
Fantasy will not work.
In regards to the modern Bible and the writings attributed to Paul, I thank God that I am not in a science forum---I would not want to be in Faiths shoes. (She is on hiatus, but may return refreshed shortly. I hope she has been praying and allowing God to refresh her mind)
In short-- I feel that Paul's writings are best examined with a faith lens rather than a science lens. Does anyone disagree?
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 11-10-2016 11:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 11-11-2016 8:04 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 11-12-2016 12:34 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 11-12-2016 10:50 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 78 of 267 (794198)
11-11-2016 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
11-11-2016 7:23 AM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
Phat writes:
In short-- I feel that Paul's writings are best examined with a faith lens rather than a science lens. Does anyone disagree?
Kinda, I deny that anything can even be examined with a faith lens. The very existence of a faith lens preclude any honest examination.
AbE: Let's look closely at why a "faith lens" is not really useful.
If you look at Jesus' message through a Jewish Faith Lens or a Muslim Faith Lens or an Evangelical Faith Lens or an Episcopal Faith Lens or a Taoist Faith Lens or a Hindu Faith Lens or a Buddhist Faith lens you see seven different things. Use an Agnostic or Atheist or Animist or Satanist or Protestant or Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox and you get still more varied results.
The problem is that when you use a Faith Lens it is the lens not the content or specimen that determines what you see.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 11-11-2016 7:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 267 (794233)
11-12-2016 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
11-11-2016 7:23 AM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
In short-- I feel that Paul's writings are best examined with a faith lens rather than a science lens. Does anyone disagree?
Many of Paul's arguments are intended to convince folk who are already believers in the Gospel of one or more related propositions. Such arguments would be unpersuasive to folks who are not believers. That's perfectly okay. Just as not every genetics class must start by proving that evolution is correct or by reciting the basics of DNA, not every writing by Paul should be intended to prove that Christ lived, died, and was resurrected.
I have no idea what you mean by a 'faith lens', but Paul's writings to say, the Church at Ephesus was intended as guidance for a church who ostensibly believed in Christ in the way Paul did.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 11-11-2016 7:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 267 (794251)
11-12-2016 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
11-11-2016 7:23 AM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
Phat writes:
In short-- I feel that Paul's writings are best examined with a faith lens rather than a science lens. Does anyone disagree?
Faith and examination are mutually exclusive. If you're examining your faith, you don't have faith. At best, you're wishing you had some.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 11-11-2016 7:23 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 11-12-2016 1:26 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 81 of 267 (794254)
11-12-2016 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
11-12-2016 10:50 AM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
thats not what i mean. With most people whom I associate with, there is little concern whether the words came from God or whether they are simply inspirational.
Here at EvC, everything gets dissected too extremely, which would kill the faith of a weaker believer. As an example, take the redactor argument. I dont care so much whether John wrote John or whether Fred wrote John. My question is more about the intentions and the source of inspiration for the author.
Once we get the wagon unstuck from that mud, we then go off on all of these rabbit trails concerning human sources and intentions...which is an argument that is far from settled. (I have heard good arguments from different sources)
It all gets back to belief. I believe in God...and you don't. We seem to agree on human responsibility and thats about as far as we get.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 11-12-2016 10:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 11-13-2016 1:09 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 82 of 267 (794268)
11-13-2016 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
11-12-2016 1:26 PM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
Phat writes:
I dont care so much whether John wrote John or whether Fred wrote John. My question is more about the intentions and the source of inspiration for the author.
You're going to have to make up your mind. You've been saying that the messenger is more important than the message but now you're saying that you don't care who wrote the message down. Where do you draw the line? How many intermediaries don't you care about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 11-12-2016 1:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 11-13-2016 4:16 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 267 (794276)
11-13-2016 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
11-13-2016 1:09 PM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
You've been saying that the messenger is more important than the message but now you're saying that you don't care who wrote the message down.
Right. I dont care who the human author is as long as the message is inspired of and by the Holy Spirit.
I still believe the messenger (source) is in fact the message.
Jesus is the messenger through the Holy Spirit.
His death, burial, and resurrection is in fact the message.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 11-13-2016 1:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 11-14-2016 10:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 84 of 267 (794301)
11-14-2016 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
11-13-2016 4:16 PM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
Phat writes:
I dont care who the human author is as long as the message is inspired of and by the Holy Spirit.
How do you know about the message except through human messengers?
Phat writes:
His death, burial, and resurrection is in fact the message.
That`s a pretty worthless "message".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 11-13-2016 4:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 11-14-2016 10:49 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 267 (794302)
11-14-2016 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
11-14-2016 10:36 AM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
If "his death burial and resurrection" is the message, how is that a different message than the son of Zarephath's widow or when Peter raises a female disciple named Tabitha from the dead or when the dead man touched Elisha's bones (dem bones dem bones) or when Paul raises Eutychus from the dead or even Paul himself as described in Acts 14? Of course in most of those as well as the others that Jesus raised from the dead they hadn't had time for the burial so maybe the message is "time Flies like and arrow but fruit flies like bananas".

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 11-14-2016 10:36 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 11-16-2016 12:02 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 267 (794471)
11-16-2016 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
11-14-2016 10:49 AM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
in the case of Acts 14,
Acts 14:19-20 writes:
Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead. 20 But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city. The next day he and Barnabas left for Derbe.
Sounds like he was knocked out.
As for the son of Zaraphaths widow, Jesus...unlike her son, was not simply another dead kid whose mother raised by her expertise at shaming the prophet into performing a miracle to preserve his reputation.
We all know how Jewish Mothers can influence their sons faith...but in Jesus case, He followed the directions of His Father. (Some mothers claim that Christianity is all about what one does and not what one believes, but a wise son would see that it is both. )
Another point that needs to be addressed is Pauls teaching regarding the power of sin over those who merely observe the law. (Romans 6)
First of all, are we on the same page regarding the definition of sin the way we define the term and the way Paul defined it?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 11-14-2016 10:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 1:11 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 267 (794477)
11-16-2016 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
11-16-2016 12:02 PM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
Phat writes:
First of all, are we on the same page regarding the definition of sin the way we define the term and the way Paul defined it?
Almost certainly not. I believe sin is simply a human construct that has absolutely no meaning outside the very narrow and inconsistent cult involved.
Sin is nobody's business except maybe the sinner.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 11-16-2016 12:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 11-18-2016 12:04 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 267 (794608)
11-18-2016 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
11-16-2016 1:11 PM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
jar writes:
I believe sin is simply a human construct that has absolutely no meaning outside the very narrow and inconsistent cult involved.
How narrow and inconsistent is this so-called cult? What specific cult do you have in mind?
Paul certainly must be involved.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 1:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 11-18-2016 8:17 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 267 (794610)
11-18-2016 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
11-18-2016 12:04 AM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
Phat writes:
How narrow and inconsistent is this so-called cult? What specific cult do you have in mind?
Paul certainly must be involved.
Oh, lots of cults, hundreds just within Christianity. And very, very, very inconsistent.
Sin is another human construct and so we find what is a sin varies greatly. Paul had his ideas of what was a sin but then so did Peter, John and James and they were not all uniform.
Just look at the various things seen as sin right here at River City. Some members would tell you there cannot be any sins since there are no Gods. James would consider working on the Sabbath a sin while Jesus felt that the actual circumstances were what mattered; if your ass falls in the ditch on the sabbath go ahead and pull it out, don't wait to do it another day. Kim would gladly get a stick and break a cobras back while Teshoo Lama would walk by it and bless it. Some folk on here think same sex marriage a sin, others see only two loving people.
According to the Bible, even God has a hard time knowing good from evil and what is or is not a sin.
My position is that sin is completely irrelevant beyond an individual and the moral framework that individual believes in.
The only sins I should even consider are those sins I believe I commit.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 11-18-2016 12:04 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 11-18-2016 2:43 PM jar has not replied
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 11-20-2016 8:26 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 267 (794637)
11-18-2016 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
11-18-2016 8:17 AM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
jar writes:
My position is that sin is completely irrelevant beyond an individual and the moral framework that individual believes in.
The only sins I should even consider are those sins I believe I commit.
I can even find a scripture that supports your belief.
Romans 2:14-15 writes:
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 11-18-2016 8:17 AM jar has not replied

  
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