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Author Topic:   The Church And Sexual Expression
Coyote
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Posts: 5663
Joined: 01-12-2008
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(3)
Message 16 of 34 (793891)
11-06-2016 11:18 PM


Rant
I have a rather biased view of this whole church/sex issue:

The church needs sinners--that's their business. That's their livelihood!

If they can create a bunch of additional sins, then they have a lot more sinners. And sex is a prime target.

If they can convince the sinners that they created that they are the "cure" (for a price) for those sins that they created, then they'll never have to do honest labor again.

And the most evil created sin of all is "original sin." That's the biggest lie and cruelest idea ever concocted by our shaman class. Ayn Rand explains it well:

What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man.

Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives.

More

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/original_sin.html


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 17 of 34 (793930)
11-07-2016 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tangle
11-06-2016 9:41 AM


Re: Its The Purpose
I have no idea what you're talking about. You seem to be involved in some sort of personal revelation.
The only revelation that I have is that all love starts and ends with Jesus Christ.

You can argue against this fact, but all that you have left is humanity--and you wont fully express your love for humanity without an insight deeper than mere biology.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 9:41 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 11-07-2016 8:02 AM Phat has responded
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2016 8:17 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 11-07-2016 10:59 AM Phat has responded
 Message 29 by Rrhain, posted 11-07-2016 9:02 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 18 of 34 (793931)
11-07-2016 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coyote
11-06-2016 11:18 PM


Randroids & Individual Expression
Rand basically teaches Objectivism

I am a Christian, and do not support objectivism. Pursuit of one's own happiness is contrary to what Jesus taught.

quote:
1. Jesus preached the virtue of selflessness; Rand wrote a book called "The Virtue of Selfishness" (1964). Altruism is evil, she argued, and egoism the only true ethics.

2. The Apostle Paul called the love of money the root of all evil. Rand wore a dollar sign brooch and saw to it that a florid dollar sign stood guard by her casket at her funeral. She also put a love letter to the almighty dollar on the lips of one of her "Atlas Shrugged" heroes, copper magnate Francisco d’Anconia (a speech Ryan has said he returns to repeatedly when pondering monetary policy). There d’Anconia calls money “the root of all good."

3. “Blessed are the poor,” Jesus says in the Gospel of Luke. And he says in the Gospel of Matthew that “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” In the Gospel according to Ayn Rand, however, it is the “traders” (“job creators” in modern parlance) who like Atlas carry the weight of the world on their shoulders, while the poor are denounced as “moochers” and “looters."

4. The hope of the Christian gospel is the kingdom of God, but Rand's objectivist philosophy opposes "collectivism" at every turn. “Man - every man - is an end in himself, he exists for his own sake,” the inventor John Galt proclaims in "Atlas Shrugged," “and the achievement of his own happiness is his highest moral purpose.”

5. The ultimate concern of Christianity is God. The ultimate concern of Randism is the unfettered freedom of the individual. While the Christian Trinity comprise the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Rand’s Trinity is I, me, mine.


Man is not God, nor are we our own highest ideal. Perhaps atheists would tend to embrace objectivism more due to their ideal conception.

Edited by Phat, : fixed


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Coyote, posted 11-06-2016 11:18 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2016 8:21 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28689
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 19 of 34 (793935)
11-07-2016 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tangle
11-06-2016 3:16 PM


Re: Its The Purpose
Tangle writes:

Tell me, what flaws are newborn babies born with?

They are all pruny and wrinkly and smell bad and spit up and can't control their bowels and lose their hair and ...


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 3:16 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28689
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 20 of 34 (793936)
11-07-2016 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
11-07-2016 7:19 AM


Re: Its The Purpose
Phat writes:

The only revelation that I have is that all love starts and ends with Jesus Christ.

You can argue against this fact, but all that you have left is humanity--and you wont fully express your love for humanity without an insight deeper than mere biology.

Do you have any idea how vacuous that sounds?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 11-07-2016 7:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4546
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 21 of 34 (793938)
11-07-2016 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
11-07-2016 7:19 AM


Re: Its The Purpose
quote:
You can argue against this fact, but all that you have left is humanity--and you wont fully express your love for humanity without an insight deeper than mere biology.

What do you mean 'all' I have is humanity? That's what we are.

You've some crazy strawman idea in your head that appears to be making you think that people can't have meaningful, long term relationships without this god nonsense or that the alternative is a purely mechanistic view of people.

It's dumb, offensive and utterly wrong.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 11-07-2016 7:19 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4546
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 22 of 34 (793939)
11-07-2016 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
11-07-2016 7:25 AM


Re: Randroids & Individual Expression
quote:
Man is not God, nor are we our own highest ideal. Perhaps atheists would tend to embrace objectivism more due to their ideal conception.

What? Are you losing the plot? You keep saying things that don't actually mean anything. They're just strings of preachy sounding words.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 11-07-2016 7:25 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4546
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 23 of 34 (793940)
11-07-2016 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
11-07-2016 7:56 AM


Re: Its The Purpose
quote:
They are all pruny and wrinkly and smell bad and spit up and can't control their bowels and lose their hair and ...

Sounds like my late mother-in-law.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 11-07-2016 7:56 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12922
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 24 of 34 (793951)
11-07-2016 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
11-06-2016 3:03 PM


Re: Its The Purpose
Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that humans should not strive for deeper insight?


I'm suggesting that people shouldn't look for ready-made insight; they shouldn't expect everybody's relationships to be the same; they shouldn't assume that there is something "wrong" if their relationships don't fit the mould.

Phat writes:

No wonder you dont want any sort of authority in your life apart from your own inner awareness.


Now you're contradicting yourself. Yes, we should have inner awareness, NOT rely on some spook to tell us who we are.

Phat writes:

My argument is that you and all of us collectively---are not fully healthy just the way we are.


Who said we were? My position is that religion is not the cure for addictions and compulsions. It's one of them.

Phat writes:

... overall sensuality without responsibility that the human animal is plagued with.


You keep forgetting that I'M the one who advocates responsibility.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 3:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12922
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 25 of 34 (793952)
11-07-2016 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
11-07-2016 7:19 AM


Re: Its The Purpose
Phat writes:

... all love starts and ends with Jesus Christ.


quote:
All love starts and ends with Coca-Cola!

All love starts and ends with Tide!

All love starts and ends with Volkswagen!

All love starts and ends with Kellogg's Corn Flakes!


Nice slogan - and one size fits all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 11-07-2016 7:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 26 of 34 (793953)
11-07-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
11-07-2016 10:59 AM


Re: Its The Purpose
You are a nut!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 11-07-2016 10:59 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 27 of 34 (793954)
11-07-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
11-07-2016 8:02 AM


Re: Its The Purpose
Do you have any idea how vacuous that sounds?
Im sure that SI Hayakawa is channeling through you at this moment!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 11-07-2016 8:02 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6094
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 28 of 34 (793991)
11-07-2016 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
11-06-2016 9:05 AM


Re: Love and Sex
Phat writes:

quote:
What I am suggesting is what the Pastor has suggested in this video--that there is a different role for same gender attraction than merely being encouraged to biologically "love" your spouse...and if a spouse of the same gender is the only solution.

This is gobbledygook.

Exactly what is it you think gay people do that straight people don't? Or vice versa? Are you seriously claiming that gay people "love" differently than straight people?

quote:
It is my contention that same gender attraction can be used as a tool for a deeper love---such as Jesus has and had, that can be used to nurture the church as a group---and that traditional religion has been shooting itself in the foot for not recognizing the role that can be played by such individuals.

Are you talking about Platonic love?

Let me clue you in: That isn't "gay." If you want to talk about comity and friendship and all the rest of fraternity, then by all means talk about it.

Why you gotta drag gay people into this? Yes, it's true that gay people, out of necessity, form their own families out of nothing but desire to be a family. When the family that raised you rejects you because you're gay, you turn to others to create the family you need. But that's true of anybody who is rejected by the people they thought were their family. And as more and more people come to accept being gay as something to be as celebrated as being straight, then your claim that the church needs to look to gay people won't make much sense.

What on earth are you talking about?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 9:05 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6094
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 29 of 34 (793992)
11-07-2016 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
11-07-2016 7:19 AM


Re: Its The Purpose
Phat writes:

quote:
The only revelation that I have is that all love starts and ends with Jesus Christ.

(*blink!*)

You did not just say that, did you?

Did you honestly just argue that atheists don't love? That Jews don't love? That two-thirds of the entire planet doesn't love?

Because none of them have any connection to this "Jesus Christ" object you're talking about. They seem to be able to love just fine without it.

What is it that makes you think you know better than they do about their love?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 11-07-2016 7:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 11-08-2016 9:52 AM Rrhain has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 30 of 34 (794004)
11-08-2016 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Rrhain
11-07-2016 9:02 PM


Re: Its The Purpose
Did you honestly just argue that atheists don't love? That Jews don't love? That two-thirds of the entire planet doesn't love?
Basically, yes. I am arguing that many people do not love enough.

And seeing how this is a Faith & Belief topic, I will bring scripture into it.

Because none of them have any connection to this "Jesus Christ" object you're talking about. They seem to be able to love just fine without it.

  • My belief is that the only reason we all are alive at all is because we are in the age of grace. Without Jesus Christ, life itself would not occur. Granted my critics will scoff at this or be offended, but I am simply sharing my belief.

  • The church exists so that its members can enjoy holy communion. This involves loving/knowing God and loving/knowing others.
    People outside of the church...perhaps that 2/3 that yo speak of, are obviously able to love each other without being required to worship or believe in God.

    Lets go to scripture.

    1 Cor 13:4-7 writes:


    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    Whether it is a straight couple or a gay couple, the scripture exorts us to love.
  • Love is not jealous. If you really love someone you are willing to let them go if that is what their heart desires. God is the same way with us. He never makes anyone worship Him or believe in Him. He always hopes that we will, however.
    Does that make God needy? (Personally I think He does not need us so much as He knows that we need Him.)
    What is it that makes you think you know better than they do about their love?

    Im just sharing my belief. I can't make you agree with me nor can I make you love me or even like me.

    Neither can God.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by Rrhain, posted 11-07-2016 9:02 PM Rrhain has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by ringo, posted 11-08-2016 11:06 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 32 by Tangle, posted 11-08-2016 6:40 PM Phat has not yet responded
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