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Author Topic:   Republican Healthcare Plan
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 76 of 165 (794541)
11-16-2016 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 7:23 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Cat Sci writes:

Where did I say that?

"Having the government in charge of something makes it cost more money and take longer. "--Cat Sci, message 39


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 7:23 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 7:34 PM Taq has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11105
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 77 of 165 (794542)
11-16-2016 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Taq
11-16-2016 7:24 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
So you don't want to spend less than 50% of what we are currently spending on healthcare if it means that the government is involved? If so, why?

I've seen the government fuck up enough shit that the last thing that I want them in charge of is my healthcare. But I don't care if they are in charge of your healthcare.

I also don't want to pay more in taxes. And I'd like to keep my healthcare costs reasonable.

So now what?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 11-16-2016 7:24 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-16-2016 8:34 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 91 by Taq, posted 11-17-2016 10:42 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11105
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 78 of 165 (794543)
11-16-2016 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Taq
11-16-2016 7:26 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Cat Sci writes:

Where did I say that?


"Having the government in charge of something makes it cost more money and take longer. "--Cat Sci, message 39

Is that not a true statement?

And isn't that a different statement than: "Socialist healthcare costs too much."?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Taq, posted 11-16-2016 7:26 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Tangle, posted 11-16-2016 7:43 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 98 by Taq, posted 11-17-2016 11:08 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4305
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 79 of 165 (794544)
11-16-2016 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 7:34 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
quote:
Is that not a true statement?

Of course not. You've swallowed the dogma.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 7:34 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 8:10 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11105
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 80 of 165 (794545)
11-16-2016 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Taq
11-16-2016 7:12 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
This may deserve a thread of its own.

See all those countries paying much less than the US? Those are socialist healthcare systems. Unless someone can show how these numbers are incorrect, lets just accept the fact that the the US for-profit system costs too much, not socialist healthcare. If someone can't accept these plain facts, then their opinions on this topic are simply not legitimate.

The problem I have with these comparisons is that there is an assumption of "all else being equal" if the US system was socialist it would as cheap as those other countries.

The US healthcare system is systematically different from other countries'.

We use hospitals for routine stuff, we take way more drugs, we do more medical research, we're higher tech, etc.

Those things are going to drive up per capita costs despite how the system is paid for.

Here's a reference:

quote:
Higher spending appeared to be largely driven by greater use of medical technology and higher health care prices,..

...

The U.S. stood out as a top consumer of sophisticated diagnostic imaging technology. Americans had the highest per capita rates of MRI, computed tomography (CT), and positron emission tomography (PET) exams among the countries where data were available. The U.S. and Japan were among the countries with the highest number of these imaging machines.9

In addition, Americans were top consumers of prescription drugs. Based on findings from the 2013 Commonwealth Fund International Surveys, adults in the U.S. and New Zealand on average take more prescription drugs (2.2 per adult) than adults in other countries.


I'm reminded of a scene from the Simpsons where Homer is visiting Dr. Hibbert and he says something along the lines of: "You're probably going to be okay, but lets run a bunch of expensive tests to make sure."

That, and we're all about treating symptoms with drugs (we take over twice as many) rather than addressing the root cause of the problem.

Another thing is all the research we do. Just a quick google search:

quote:
Once the undisputed center of global innovation in medicine, the U.S. is steadily losing ground to Asia and Europe and will, if trends continue, relinquish its leadership in the coming decade. That is the conclusion of an analysis appearing today in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

“U.S. medical research remains the primary global source of new discoveries, drugs, medical devices, and clinical procedures,” said University of Rochester neurologist Ray Dorsey, M.D., M.B.A., a co-author of the study. “However, a decade of unprecedented growth in research activity has been followed by a decade of steady decline which now leaves open the possibility that other nations could assume global leadership given their increasing investment in biomedical research.” source


So we're loosing ground, but "undisputed center" and "primary global source" are pretty strong words.

The point is, side-by-side cost comparisons under the guise of socialist vs. non-socialist does not paint the whole picture.

The US literally does pay for more stuff in healthcare and all other things are not equal.

So, these side-by-sides aren't all that compelling for me. I get it, socializing healthcare could help. It's just not as cut and dry as you're making it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Taq, posted 11-16-2016 7:12 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 11-17-2016 3:55 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11105
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 81 of 165 (794546)
11-16-2016 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Tangle
11-16-2016 7:43 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
The implicit assumption is that I'm talking about the U.S. government.

Where have they done something cheaper and faster than the private sector?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Tangle, posted 11-16-2016 7:43 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by DrJones*, posted 11-16-2016 8:22 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1642
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


(1)
Message 82 of 165 (794547)
11-16-2016 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 8:10 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Where have they done something cheaper and faster than the private sector?

the moon race
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 8:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1318
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.3


(3)
Message 83 of 165 (794548)
11-16-2016 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 7:30 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Cat Sci msg 73 writes:

A damn 40% tax rate. Fuck that.

Wait a minute, right now I assume you have a tax rate AND an insurance premium paid for by or your employer. If we go to a government single payer system your tax rate goes up about the equivalent of 50% of your insurance premium, but you do not pay an insurance premium any longer. Or a little less is paid for from taxes and the individual pays a relatively small monthly amount.

That is how Medicare is right now, the individual pays about $100 a month (out of their Social Security check).

I've seen the government fuck up enough shit that the last thing that I want them in charge of is my healthcare.

Me too, I've seen the republicans in the United States Congress intentionally try to fuck up everything the government does, plus they cut all the funding for regulators that catch the fuck ups and fraud so it cannot be fixed.

I don't know about you, but I have been dealing with private sector billing and insurance fuck ups constantly for the past decade. I had to take off work early this morning so I could tell the person at the insurance company that I want them to talk to my wife about fuck ups in my billing because she can hear a lot better than me.

I have told my insurance company multiple times on the phone and in writing that my medical supply company is charging too much and is making mistakes in the quantity they are billing for and nothing is being done. I am on my 4th supply company and they all do it because they know that there are no regulators looking over their shoulders. The industry is self-regulating and we are paying for all those extra costs through higher premiums.

I also don't want to pay more in taxes. And I'd like to keep my healthcare costs reasonable.

A large part of the costs for this should be paid for by large corporations and the wealthiest individuals in return for their larger than normal access and influence over government, at all levels.

And I recognize that this kind of a health care system is unlikely to come about in America as long as the republicans have any power and as long as our elections are corrupted in all the ways that those profiteering from the system are directing.

More and more of our government is being sabotaged and privatized and as the saying goes, "You ain't seen nothing yet!"

Edited by Tanypteryx, : spelling

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 7:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-17-2016 9:39 AM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4305
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 84 of 165 (794552)
11-17-2016 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 8:09 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Couple of things - our tax rate is not 40%, it varies from 0 to a max of 45%. The basic rate is 20%.

The UK is not socialist, at the moment it's right wing conservative. But even the most extreme right wing government knows that removing the NHS would be political suicide. Once you've had universal healthcare free at the point of delivery, you can't understand countries that don't. I'd hate to have your risk hanging over me.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 8:09 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 5928
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 4.6


(4)
Message 85 of 165 (794553)
11-17-2016 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 7:21 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Cat Sci writes:

quote:
A damn 40% tax rate. Fuck that.

Someone doesn't understand how tax rates work.

But before we get to that, the top tax rate in the US is 39.6%. So are you really complaining about an increase of 0.4 points?

Now, Tanypteryx has already explained that the amount of money you would pay in increased taxes would be less than the amount you pay in insurance premiums so you would actually be *saving* money, but let's go back to the original point:

Someone doesn't understand how tax rates work.

Yes, we have a top tax rate of 39.6% here in the US, but note the important word: "Top." We have tax brackets. When you find yourself moving into a higher tax bracket, that higher tax rate does not apply to all of your income. It only applies to the money you have earned in excess of the threshold to trigger it.

The lowest tax rate is 10%, but it only applies to the first $9,275 (single filer). If you earned $9,275, you'd owe $928 in taxes. The next tax bracket is 15%, but it only applies to the money earned above $9,275 (up to $37,650). Thus, a person who earned $10,000 isn't paying 15% on the entire $10K, which would be $1500. They're paying 10% on the first $9,275, or $928, and 15% on the next $725, or $109, for a total of $1037.

The top tax rate of 39.6% only kicks in for money earned in excess of $415,050. If you honestly cannot afford to live on half a million dollars with that tax rate, then you are in need of some serious guidance on handling your finances.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 7:21 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-17-2016 9:55 AM Rrhain has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3413
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 86 of 165 (794561)
11-17-2016 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 4:24 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
And it has purchasing leverage no private company has.

And still, it requires supplemental insurance...

Er, um,...

SFW?

Congress made the decision not to cover everything.

Medicare has purchasing leverage no private company has.

The firsts does negate the second.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 4:24 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-17-2016 9:59 AM JonF has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11105
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 87 of 165 (794563)
11-17-2016 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tanypteryx
11-16-2016 8:34 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Wait a minute, right now I assume you have a tax rate AND an insurance premium paid for by or your employer. If we go to a government single payer system your tax rate goes up about the equivalent of 50% of your insurance premium, but you do not pay an insurance premium any longer. Or a little less is paid for from taxes and the individual pays a relatively small monthly amount.

My employer pays me a salary and on top of that they pay for my health insurance as a benefit. If I opt out of the benefit, then that money does *not* go on top of my salary.

Going to the single payer system above would take money out of my pocket and save my employer the cost of insurance premiums. No thanks.

That is how Medicare is right now, the individual pays about $100 a month (out of their Social Security check).

Medicare also requires supplemental insurance.

Me too, I've seen the republicans in the United States Congress intentionally try to fuck up everything the government does, plus they cut all the funding for regulators that catch the fuck ups and fraud so it cannot be fixed.

So why would you want them in charge of your healthcare?

I don't know about you, but I have been dealing with private sector billing and insurance fuck ups constantly for the past decade.

I'd expect it to be worse with the government...

How flawless is the Medicare billing?

A large part of the costs for this should be paid for by large corporations and the wealthiest individuals in return for their larger than normal access and influence over government, at all levels.

I work for a large corporation and they are paying for this.

More and more of our government is being sabotaged and privatized and as the saying goes, "You ain't seen nothing yet!"

And yet, you still want them in charge of your healthcare?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-16-2016 8:34 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 11-17-2016 10:50 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 114 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-17-2016 7:31 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11105
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 88 of 165 (794564)
11-17-2016 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Rrhain
11-17-2016 4:36 AM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Now, Tanypteryx has already explained that the amount of money you would pay in increased taxes would be less than the amount you pay in insurance premiums so you would actually be *saving* money,

My employer would be saving money and I would be losing money.

Someone doesn't understand how tax rates work.

Yes, we have a top tax rate of 39.6% here in the US, but note the important word: "Top." We have tax brackets. When you find yourself moving into a higher tax bracket, that higher tax rate does not apply to all of your income. It only applies to the money you have earned in excess of the threshold to trigger it.

The lowest tax rate is 10%, but it only applies to the first $9,275 (single filer). If you earned $9,275, you'd owe $928 in taxes. The next tax bracket is 15%, but it only applies to the money earned above $9,275 (up to $37,650). Thus, a person who earned $10,000 isn't paying 15% on the entire $10K, which would be $1500. They're paying 10% on the first $9,275, or $928, and 15% on the next $725, or $109, for a total of $1037.

The top tax rate of 39.6% only kicks in for money earned in excess of $415,050.

I understand how the tax rates work. In the UK, the 40% tax bracket starts at roughly a tenth of that amount (£43,001). This doesn't have anything to do with the top rate in the U.S.

The UK top rate, the 45% bracket, starts at only £150,000.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Rrhain, posted 11-17-2016 4:36 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 11-17-2016 10:35 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11105
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 89 of 165 (794565)
11-17-2016 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by JonF
11-17-2016 8:10 AM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
I said that having the government in charge of something makes is more expensive. You responded saying how great Medicare is. Medicare is not that great because you still have to buy additional insurance. Yes, that is the governments fault, but that is more reason why they suck at being in charge of something.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by JonF, posted 11-17-2016 8:10 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by JonF, posted 11-17-2016 10:48 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
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 Message 108 by Rrhain, posted 11-17-2016 5:02 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28156
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 90 of 165 (794567)
11-17-2016 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by New Cat's Eye
11-17-2016 9:55 AM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
quote:
No man is an Iland, intire of itselfe; every man
is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine;
if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe
is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as
well as if a Manor of thy friends or of thine
owne were; any mans death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankinde;
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-17-2016 9:55 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
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