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Author Topic:   Republican Healthcare Plan
Taq
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Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 121 of 187 (794624)
11-18-2016 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by New Cat's Eye
11-18-2016 11:47 AM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Cat Sci writes:

I'm sure if a True ChristianTM came here saying they were against gay marriage because they thought it was a bad idea, y'all would accept that as a good excuse and not berate them for their intolerance.

This isn't about what people "think". This is about facts. The facts are that government run single payer systems cost their citizens half of what the US corporate run, for profit system costs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2016 11:47 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2016 12:32 PM Taq has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 122 of 187 (794625)
11-18-2016 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Taq
11-18-2016 12:29 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
The facts are that government run single payer systems cost their citizens half of what the US corporate run, for profit system costs.

I dunno, sounds like Mod is saying an insurance plan in the UK costs over 20k.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Taq, posted 11-18-2016 12:29 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Taq, posted 11-18-2016 12:36 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 123 of 187 (794626)
11-18-2016 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
11-18-2016 11:42 AM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Cat Sci writes:

"Could", but not. You're arguing semantics. My benefits do not affect my paycheck like my taxes do. It could be different, yes, but that is what is it.

Your benefits DO affect your paycheck. This isn't an if. This is a fact. Healthcare costs take up more than 17.1% of our GDP. In the UK, healthcare takes up 9.1% of GDP. This is the same thing we see when we compare the US to any other country with universal single payer healthcare. Every time.

Do you think this is just a coincidence?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2016 11:42 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2016 12:39 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 124 of 187 (794627)
11-18-2016 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by New Cat's Eye
11-18-2016 12:32 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Cat Sci writes:

I dunno, sounds like Mod is saying an insurance plan in the UK costs over 20k.

Here is the same information for a third time:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2016 12:32 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 125 of 187 (794628)
11-18-2016 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Taq
11-18-2016 12:35 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Cat Sci writes:

"Could", but not. You're arguing semantics. My benefits do not affect my paycheck like my taxes do. It could be different, yes, but that is what is it.

Your benefits DO affect your paycheck.

Not like my taxes do.

Healthcare costs take up more than 17.1% of our GDP. In the UK, healthcare takes up 9.1% of GDP.

More high tech, more drug use, leading medical research, etc.

Do you think this is just a coincidence?

No, it's just not the be-all-end-all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Taq, posted 11-18-2016 12:35 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Taq, posted 11-18-2016 12:41 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 126 of 187 (794629)
11-18-2016 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by New Cat's Eye
11-18-2016 12:39 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Cat Sci writes:

Not like my taxes do.

Yes, just like your taxes do. Those benefits could be going straight into your pocket just like taxes.

More high tech, more drug use, leading medical research, etc.

Assertions without evidence.

Added in edit: It looks like the US spent $120 billion in 2012 on medical research. That would be about $400 per capita. We spend $5,000 more per year per capita on healthcare compared to the UK. The math isn't adding up.

No, it's just not the be-all-end-all.

Paying more than twice what other countries pay is worth it?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2016 12:39 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2016 1:18 PM Taq has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 127 of 187 (794630)
11-18-2016 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Taq
11-18-2016 12:41 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
I'm collapsing the last two responses to stop cross-posting.

From Message 126:

Yes, just like your taxes do. Those benefits could be going straight into your pocket just like taxes.

No, 'could be' is not 'is'. But I'm done arguing semantics.

Assertions without evidence.

See Message 80.

Paying more than twice what other countries pay is worth it?

Maybe, depends on what you're paying for. I'm certainly willing to pay more money for better healthcare.

From Message 124:

Cat Sci writes:

I dunno, sounds like Mod is saying an insurance plan in the UK costs over 20k.

Here is the same information for a third time:

So, I did respond to that chart in Message 80. But this one is a different image and has a reference to the source in it.

Here's a link to download the pdf it came from if anyone is interested.

Here's the terms for that chart in particular:

quote:
Definition and comparability

Total expenditure on health measures the final consumption
of health goods and services (i.e. current
health expenditure) plus capital investment in health
care infrastructure. This includes spending by both
public and private sources on medical services and
goods, public health and prevention programmes and
administration.

To compare spending levels between countries, per
capita health expenditures are converted to a common
currency (US dollar) and adjusted to take
account of the different purchasing power of the
national currencies, in order to compare spending
levels. Economy-wide (GDP) PPPs are used as the most
available and reliable conversion rates.

To compare spending over time, figures are deflated
using the economy-wide GDP implicit deflator for
each country. In the case of Chile, the Consumer Price
Index (CPI) is preferred since it is considered more
representative of price changes in the health sector in
recent years.


So that's data on what countries spend on goods and services, including capital investments in infrastructure, and is not what people spend on healthcare insurance. So that's really not a reply to what I was saying about the cost of insurance.

Anyways, since the U.S. does pay for more healthcare stuff than other countries, you cannot use that chart to put the sole blame on our system being for-profit rather than being socialized. Nor can you say that socializing our system would bring our expenditures down to where other countries are.

If you look on page 159 in the pdf I linked to, you can see that the U.S. spends their money quite differently too. We spend a smaller fraction on inpatient care and a larger fraction on outpatient care, and also spend the largest fraction on collective services (such as public health and prevention services and administration).

Page 161 shows that we're almost off the chart on our expenditures on pharmaceuticals.

I'd like to see how our expenditures on infrastructure differ, maybe we're building a lot more new hospitals than the UK.

So, there's a lot more to this than: "Look, this large one's for-profit and these other smaller ones are socialized, ergo if the U.S. was socialized we'd be like the small ones."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Taq, posted 11-18-2016 12:41 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Taq, posted 11-18-2016 2:54 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 128 of 187 (794639)
11-18-2016 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by New Cat's Eye
11-18-2016 1:18 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Cat Sci writes:

No, 'could be' is not 'is'. But I'm done arguing semantics.

I'm not done. That is how much they pay to employ you. That includes your health benefits. If there was a universal healthcare system paid for through taxes they could be paying that money directly to you. Period.

See Message 80.

I' not seeing any dollar values. Also, you need to show increases in health benefits from additional drugs or technology.

Maybe, depends on what you're paying for. I'm certainly willing to pay more money for better healthcare.

You haven't shown that it is better, only more expensive.

So that's data on what countries spend on goods and services, including capital investments in infrastructure, and is not what people spend on healthcare insurance. So that's really not a reply to what I was saying about the cost of insurance.

The NHS in the UK doesn't take a profit. All of the money that goes into the NHS goes to goods and services. That is what they spend on healthcare.

Anyways, since the U.S. does pay for more healthcare stuff than other countries, you cannot use that chart to put the sole blame on our system being for-profit rather than being socialized.

Yes, I can. The NHS actually studies health outcomes so they know which tests and medications don't improve outcome. They have standards of care which cut costs. Our for profit system does not because there is no incentive to reduce costs. Hospitals don't care if they are overspending for new technology because they pass the additional costs to the consumer. Hospitals don't care if they are prescribing medications that don't improve outcome because they make more money. It has everything to do with the for profit nature of the US system.

As far as pharmaceuticals, we pay twice what other countries are paying FOR THE SAME DRUGS. Why? Because there is no incentive for reducing the price for consumers. Hospitals don't care because the cost is passed on to the consumer. Drug companies love it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2016 1:18 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2016 3:10 PM Taq has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 129 of 187 (794642)
11-18-2016 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Taq
11-18-2016 2:54 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Anyways, since the U.S. does pay for more healthcare stuff than other countries, you cannot use that chart to put the sole blame on our system being for-profit rather than being socialized.

Yes, I can. The NHS actually studies health outcomes so they know which tests and medications don't improve outcome. They have standards of care which cut costs. Our for profit system does not because there is no incentive to reduce costs. Hospitals don't care if they are overspending for new technology because they pass the additional costs to the consumer. Hospitals don't care if they are prescribing medications that don't improve outcome because they make more money. It has everything to do with the for profit nature of the US system.

I hear you, I'm not thrilled by the for-profit nature of our healthcare system. But going socialized is not the only way to stop being for-profit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Taq, posted 11-18-2016 2:54 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Taq, posted 11-18-2016 4:00 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 130 of 187 (794644)
11-18-2016 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by New Cat's Eye
11-18-2016 3:10 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Cat Sci writes:

I hear you, I'm not thrilled by the for-profit nature of our healthcare system. But going socialized is not the only way to stop being for-profit.

True. What you do need is a universal single payer system where prices are set by groups of people who are held accountable by the consumers and not stockholders. There probably are countries that have privately owned hospitals whose prices are set by government agencies. That's how we run utilities here in the US, which is how we keep utility companies from gouging consumers.

So the two big keys are 100% participation and built in incentives for price reduction (i.e. single payer and government regulation of prices).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2016 3:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7444
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 131 of 187 (794655)
11-18-2016 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by New Cat's Eye
11-18-2016 10:17 AM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Hang on. Are you telling me that an insurance plan costs over £20,000 a year?

Well no, its complicated and I'm trying to give you the gist without delving into annoying taxcodes too heavily. Unfortunately you seem to be looking at an extreme case and making unusual conclusions so I'm going to try and be as clear as possible now. The National Insurance is much like social security + medicare, some of that goes towards healthcare specifically but some of the main income tax does as well. I believe someone earning $150,000 a year will be paying about $20,000 towards Social Security and Medicare (with 50% of that paid by the employer and 50% by the employee). So even here, it should be clear that the individual has better direct benefits with the UK distribution. $10,000 in the US vs $7000 in the UK for the social security and medicare stuff.

A person earning £120,000 a year (say, the Prime Minister or a General are the kinds of people we are talking about) would, if they weren't exempt which I'm sure they are in all sorts of ways, pay £8,000 for the NHS part of their contribution including contribution from income tax. That's basically their healthcare costs, though I'm sure they'd also pay for private medical insurance on that salary.

The much more common, man on the street, earning £25,000 when it's broken down pays about £1,000 for the NHS

A fairly poor person (minimum wage, near full time) earning £12,000 a year pays £164 for their healthcare.

https://www.one.org/...-taxes-are-spent-by-the-uk-government

I thought it was supposed to be cheaper over there?

It is. Very few people earn £120,000/year salaries as an employee.
The overwhelming majority pay considerably less.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2016 10:17 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.3


Message 132 of 187 (794658)
11-18-2016 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by New Cat's Eye
11-17-2016 4:37 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
Not propaganda, direct experience. I've worked in VA and non-VA hospitals and they are shit compared to others. One VA was so attrocious that we walked out on them without even starting the service we where there to do for them. It was so filthy that my cowokers and I were not willing to risk our health to do the job.

Anecdote not evidence. You have a real problem discerning the, difference between anecdote and evidence.
I know at least 5 vets that deal with the VA on at least a weekly basis. 4 think it is fantastic. The other hates Obama and because of that hates the VA even though he keeps going back.
So whose anecdote holds more weight? Your personal anecdotes don't mean shit and neither do mine.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-17-2016 4:37 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1346
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


(8)
Message 133 of 187 (794705)
11-20-2016 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by New Cat's Eye
11-17-2016 4:37 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
No, we negotiated a salary and then benefits are on top. The benefits do not come out of my pocket.

When I do a pricing analysis at work and need to include the cost of any employee, I do not seperate the wages and the benefits. An employee with $10,000 in wages and $3,000 in benefits cost $13,000. An employee with $8.000 in wages and $5,000 in benefits costs $13,000. Every company in the world counts exactly the same way, because not doing so would be unfathomably stupid.

You negotiated a compensation package - if you negotiated a salary without any mention of benefits you're an odd individual indeed. Your company is counting the cost of the compensation package. They're not counting the wages and ignoring the rest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-17-2016 4:37 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Taq, posted 11-21-2016 4:46 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 134 of 187 (794719)
11-21-2016 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by caffeine
11-20-2016 3:59 PM


Re: Myths Americans Believe About Healthcare
caffeine writes:

When I do a pricing analysis at work and need to include the cost of any employee, I do not seperate the wages and the benefits. An employee with $10,000 in wages and $3,000 in benefits cost $13,000. An employee with $8.000 in wages and $5,000 in benefits costs $13,000. Every company in the world counts exactly the same way, because not doing so would be unfathomably stupid.

You negotiated a compensation package - if you negotiated a salary without any mention of benefits you're an odd individual indeed. Your company is counting the cost of the compensation package. They're not counting the wages and ignoring the rest.

Anecdotally, I have had co-workers cancel their employer paid health coverage because a spouse had better coverage through their work. Those co-workers have received their benefits package in direct cash. I have personally had the same thing happen when switching funding sources, where I received my benefits package in cash until a new benefits package could be put in place.

There has been this strange erosion of expectations on the parts of workers. I don't know if it is because unions are weaker than they have been, or just propaganda. Who knows?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by caffeine, posted 11-20-2016 3:59 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 135 of 187 (796792)
01-04-2017 3:14 PM


Plan? What plan??
After all of the repeal attempts under Obama, Congress comes to this realization:

quote:
Some Republicans are cautioning against repealing the Affordable Care Act too quickly and urging the party take the foot off the accelerator. The reason: there's no plan on how to replace what they roll back.

I know that petro told you something different, but the Republicans themselves are saying that there is no plan to replace the health care system that is currently covering 20 million Americans.

quote:
Gingrich stressed that before Republicans send a bill repealing Obamacare to Trump's desk, the party must make real progress on a replacement plan. "They have to have bridges to give people a sense of comfort that they're not going to be abandoned," he said.

Yeah, I know. I quoted Newt...

quote:
GOP Sen. Rand Paul cited potential insurance market problems if the law isn't replaced when it is repealed. "If Congress fails to vote on a replacement at the same time as repeal, the repealers risk assuming the blame for the continued unraveling of Obamacare," he said in an op-ed Tuesday. "For mark my words, Obamacare will continue to unravel and wreak havoc for years to come."

From fox news:

quote:
Trump has provided few specifics about how he would revamp the nation's $3 trillion-a-year health care system. Steps he and congressional Republicans have mentioned include greater reliance on tax credits to help people afford coverage

quote:
We have plenty of plans,” said House Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Wis. “We don’t want to pull the rug out on people. We don't want people to be caught with nothing.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Diomedes, posted 01-10-2017 9:51 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
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