Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 120 (8763 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-22-2017 12:33 PM
391 online now:
14174dm, Chiroptera, DrJones*, jar, JonF, Larni, PaulK, ringo, Tangle (9 members, 382 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: aristotle
Post Volume:
Total: 811,854 Year: 16,460/21,208 Month: 2,349/3,593 Week: 462/882 Day: 83/97 Hour: 6/19

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
3Next
Author Topic:   Learning How to Pray After Finding God, from the perspective of a born again Catholic
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1739
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 16 of 35 (796920)
01-07-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
01-05-2017 8:34 AM


Re: Prayer and Envisioning
Isn't that basically the philosophy of positive thinkers such as Napoleon Hill?

Wasn't he a bit of a shyster?

More like some of the elements of the philosophies of Confucius and Schweitzer. That we should pursue right thought and right action. That we experience life as a series of thoughts and so our lives amount to the sum total of our thoughts.

Calling the universe "She"....I like that

Don't read too much into it. Written in the vernacular like we would call a ship a she.

I suppose that my point...is that prayer is belief in a certainty while meditation could include gratitude for fortuitous happenstance.

The difference between meditation and prayer is that meditation is the act of trying to be as quiet as possible in your thoughts where prayer is sort of the opposite act of being very loud and assertive in your thoughts. Positive thinking is much more like prayer in that sense but the 'certainties' involved are not the same.

I am certain that I experience life as a series of thoughts. I am certain that I can, to some extent, decide what it is that I want to think about. I am certain that what I decide to think about today will have an impact on my actions which will impact my future reality. Contrast this with the act of praying under the certainty that there is a God who is listening to you and who will interfere with events on your behalf.

I was making the point that having good thoughts can have a positive influence on your reality even if they are under the umbrella of a misconception.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 01-05-2017 8:34 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 01-09-2017 4:09 PM ProtoTypical has not yet responded
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-11-2017 3:32 PM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9419
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 17 of 35 (797004)
01-09-2017 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ProtoTypical
01-07-2017 10:58 AM


Confucious and Christianity
quote:
Here's an example of a story people told about Confucius:

Zi Lu, they say, asked Confucius, "When we hear a good idea, should we start to do it right away?" Confucius told him no. "First, you should always ask someone with more experience." Later on, Ran You asked Confucius the same question. But this time Confucius said, "Yes, of course you should do it right away." There was another student who had heard both of these conversations and was very confused. He asked Confucius why he had answered the same question in two different ways?
"Ran You has a hard time making a decision," Confucius said. "So I encouraged him to be bolder. Zi Lu sometimes decides things too quickly. So I reminded him to be careful. Naturally different people should get different answers. "


I like this "one size does not fit all" approach.

This is one reason that I like to use prayers that I say off the cuff versus books of prayer and ritualistic prayer. I believe that God does in fact deal with us as individuals and that He knows we all are different.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ProtoTypical, posted 01-07-2017 10:58 AM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9419
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 18 of 35 (797106)
01-11-2017 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ProtoTypical
01-07-2017 10:58 AM


Re: Prayer and Envisioning
Prototypical writes:

I am certain that I experience life as a series of thoughts. I am certain that I can, to some extent, decide what it is that I want to think about. I am certain that what I decide to think about today will have an impact on my actions which will impact my future reality. Contrast this with the act of praying under the certainty that there is a God who is listening to you and who will interfere with events on your behalf.

All I know is that when I pray, I choose to think about God existing and listening to my petition. I also meditate while praying on the things in my own life that I can improve...how to be less jealous, for example, and empathy for my opponents. I believe that prayer gives me a chance to become introspective on my responsibilities as well as my needs.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ProtoTypical, posted 01-07-2017 10:58 AM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2017 8:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9646
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 19 of 35 (797113)
01-11-2017 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
01-11-2017 3:32 PM


Re: Prayer and Envisioning
believe that prayer gives me a chance to become introspective on my responsibilities as well as my needs.

I don't know if I could meditate and pray at the same time. But I agree that prayer and the circumstances around it do allow opportunity for introspection. If you are taking advantage of that time, I would ignore folks who suggest that praying is a crutch. 99% of us don't spend sufficient time being introspective.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-11-2017 3:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9419
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 20 of 35 (797165)
01-13-2017 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by New Cat's Eye
12-29-2016 12:21 PM


A Source Apart From Ourselves
Cat Sci writes:

I ended up turning to God (meaning what that means to me), and I got a response. It was non-verbal, but I knew what I had to do. I don't think that source of knowledge was myself.

I didn't think so either...when it happened to me. Darn if I can prove it, though!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2016 12:21 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-14-2017 9:49 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 21 of 35 (797212)
01-14-2017 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
01-13-2017 1:02 PM


Re: A Source Apart From Ourselves
I ended up turning to God (meaning what that means to me), and I got a response. It was non-verbal, but I knew what I had to do. I don't think that source of knowledge was myself.
I didn't think so either...when it happened to me. Darn if I can prove it, though!

It's like with "The Muse". When I really allow myself to be creative and I get that inspiration, I can see how people think that's a source other than just your self. Personifying it as a female character helps us talk about it as a thing so we can relate to each other about it, but nobody really even knows if its a real other thing or not. So then it gets weird and some people think you might be crazy, so I don't really care about proving it. And if we have anonymity, it doesn't really matter what people think; we can still talk about it.

Same goes with talking about God. We're each going to have some concept of what that means, and we're probably never going to be the same, so I think it helps to just take it for what it's worth, and do what you can to help.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 1:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 22 of 35 (797213)
01-14-2017 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Modulous
12-29-2016 9:10 PM


Your friends are probably right. I guess by certain modern definitions I might qualify as one and I agree with those RL ones.

I consider you one of my "anonomous internet friends".

And yet, I find myself unhappy because I am battling addiction.

Or perhaps you are battling an addiction because you were unhappy?

It's like an emotional feedback loop.

I don't know you all that well, but you could also be suffering with psychosis or quasi-psychotic states. That can come from bipolarity, or all on its own.

I'm pretty sure it's not that bad, and I have tons of support.

I've settled on meditative practices as my preferred method.

Yeah, I'm starting to practice meditation. Thanks for the tips, I'll let you know if I have questions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Modulous, posted 12-29-2016 9:10 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Modulous, posted 01-15-2017 11:00 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 23 of 35 (797219)
01-15-2017 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
01-14-2017 9:55 PM


mental health addendum
I don't know you all that well, but you could also be suffering with psychosis or quasi-psychotic states. That can come from bipolarity, or all on its own.

I'm pretty sure it's not that bad, and I have tons of support.

I'm glad you have the support.

Though mild or quasi-psychosis is not that bad, either. I seem to get by quite well. Bipolar disorder can easily be worse.

A seriously bipolar person might spend all their money on ridiculous things, have sex with everything that is willing, not sleep or attend regular work hours and then fall into a crushing well of despair.

A mildly psychotic person might be completely undetectable. As I said, I'm mildly psychotic and almost nobody notices except in that I'm considered a little eccentric - sometimes saying things that don't seem related to the current conversations such as:

Someone: "I made a chilli last night using homegrown chilli peppers!"
Me: "Nice...do you remember the racial stereotyping in the cartoons we used to watch?"

Where I went through the associations: Chilli - Mexico and Texas - The Texas Revolution - The Battle of Gonzales - Speedy Gonzales - Racial stereotyping in cartoons. Or something of the sort.

In short: its not just the condition, it's the magnitude of the symptoms.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-14-2017 9:55 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 24 of 35 (797299)
01-16-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-29-2016 5:18 PM


I believe you but unfortunately there are other sources of such knowledge than God, and even true believers can be tripped up about that.

Outside of what you believe the Bible says, is there anything you use to help in identifying that sources are from something other than God?

ABE:

Oh, thanks for the tips on the Lord's Prayer, I appreciate it.

Edited by New Cat's Eye, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-29-2016 5:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 25 of 35 (797300)
01-16-2017 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
12-30-2016 8:38 AM


Re: Learning How To Listen
I simply go to a quiet place where no one can disturb me. I talk...sometimes audibly.

I haven't tried talking out loud yet; you think that helps?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 12-30-2016 8:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 01-16-2017 2:38 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9419
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 26 of 35 (797301)
01-16-2017 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by New Cat's Eye
01-16-2017 2:28 PM


Re: Learning How To Listen
well it cant hurt. For me its easier to say it out loud....it makes me focus better

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-16-2017 2:28 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2017 7:50 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 27 of 35 (797303)
01-16-2017 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Stile
12-30-2016 1:25 PM


Some people, like me, are terrified of working with something that isn't factual or based in objective re-inforcement.

Sure, I fit into that a bit. More so on the factual side than the objective one, though.

Part of opening yourself to God has a lot to do with submission and letting go. It makes you very vulnerable and open to suggestion, so it's scary to think that I may simply be tricking myself into believing that it is God, and that's something I want to avoid.

There is definitely "something there" that seems to not be me, but it's really hard to tell that it cannot simply be a product of the mind (there's a reason they say it takes faith). Whatever it is, it isn't the same things as my self that is sitting here typing to you right now. Maybe a different self, if it is a self, but it really doesn't seem that way.

Kinda like I said with inspiration and "The Muse"... typically something-else is inspiring you, but you gotta let it happen and you can totally fight it off.

I think praying can be a very important tool to someone with an addiction problem. But with any motivational tool... someone with an addiction needs to be very careful in how far they take it. Watch out for that line crossing from motivation-for-something-healthy into rationalization-of-something-unhealthy. It's not an easy thing to do.

I've also started practicing meditation, so there's that. It's really hard, but I like it. It follows the same patterns: you have to submit to it and just let it happen while being mindful of the distractions, and you could totally fight it.

Well... there's my ramblings

Thanks!

Edited by New Cat's Eye, : typos and added clarity


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Stile, posted 12-30-2016 1:25 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Stile, posted 01-17-2017 9:26 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 28 of 35 (797329)
01-17-2017 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by GDR
12-31-2016 8:51 PM


Thanks for the reply. If for some reason I ever left The Catholic Church, I'd join an Anglican one.

I appreciate the book recommendations, I'll add them to the list (I'm in the middle of two right now). I'll check out the youtube videos first, thanks for those too, and for seconding following The Lord's Prayer, I think that's good advice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 12-31-2016 8:51 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 29 of 35 (797330)
01-17-2017 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
01-16-2017 2:38 PM


Re: Learning How To Listen
it makes me focus better

Yeah, my mind wanders a lot.

Have you looked into mindfulness meditation? Just google it. It helps control the wondering mind, and I find it helping me to be able to pray better.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 01-16-2017 2:38 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 30 of 35 (797331)
01-17-2017 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz
01-03-2017 3:41 PM


Is life just an accident?

That literally has nothing to do with this topic.

New cat's eye, I think it can't be coincidental that the bible says that those who seek God will find Him, that He "resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble".

Sure, but if you really really want something then you are capable of convincing yourself of it. I don't want to trick myself into believe something that isn't true.

The real question is; why do only the humble find God?

Well, I'll liken it to meditation again. You cannot force yourself to meditate, you can only let go and allow yourself to fall into it. Heck, even trying to let go can prevent you from doing it. It's all about submission.

It seems to me that finding God is very similar. As if God is waiting there ready to help you, but you have to seek Him and ask for it, i.e. you gotta want it.

There may also be a experience which generalisation-fallacy-lovers would call a, "religious experience" so as to broaden the target, and lump in the born-again experience, with all other religious manmade, pseudo-gold.

Geez, you seem so hostile. What's up with that?

I think you have now experienced the start perhaps, of being born-again, which is NOT RELIGION, and you must surely know the difference now, if you really have found Him.

I'm using the phrase "born again" colloquially, but I feel like it's already happened. That is, my outlook is different now and everything seems just a bit different. Like, I actually like going to Church now, and my manners have changed.

The catholic church unfortunately, teaches a DEAD version of prayer.

I disagree. I know devout Catholics who have truly found God and pray Catholic prayers. My mother is one of them, and she says the Rosary a lot.

It's not that their version is dead, it's that their approach on how to do it was ineffective. As I said, unknowingly, they taught me how to walk the walk and talk the talk, and I totally got away with just going with the flow and saying I believed. Nobody ever questions your faith, so I blended right in and everything seemed fine. Unfortunately, I was doing it wrong and they didn't see it.

Now that I've found God, all the stuff I learned over the years is seen in a new light, and it makes a lot more sense and seems to work just fine.

I would say if it is difficult to pray it is because, "you must unlearn what you have learnt". - Yoda, - The Empire Strikes Back.

Nah, I don't think so. I don't need to unlearn it, I need to learn how to actually utilize it. It's not that it's wrong, I've just been doing it the wrong way.

Now you're dealing with THE REAL THING and I can tell you if you have tasted the real thing, you must surely know how DEAD religion is, and how religion is a CHEAP COPY of the true gospel.

I'm not buying it... religion is a system. It is dealing with things that none of us can actually know is real, so it has severe limitations. I think a lot of religion has to do with analogizing and metaphorizing rather than being attempts at literal factual descriptions. Jesus even had to use a lot of parables.

That is - you asked as a real-life experience, for God's help, you communicated, WHICH IS PRAYER. Now all you have to say is, "God lead me from here, if that was you."

I would suggest reading the bible. What I do is I ask God to lead me to the answers in His word.

I'm not drawn to praying for things for me. And I've read a ton of the Bible already, I know what it says. Perhaps a new outlook would change things, but I have enough on my plate right now.

I would say, don't stop seeking God now with a tally of 1. Choose to go forward.

That's good advice, I intend for prayer to be a habitual part of my life.

...if life is an accident, if it's all a big-banged tornado in a junkyard, then to my mind, logically speaking, specifically answered prayer wouldn't happen generally, nor would the other 4,500 specific answers God has given me, have happened, because it would just be a random, indifferent, universe where there is no God to answer.

...

You have to cut through the phlegm and ask this question; "does this fit with a universe where God does exist and can communicate to me like the bible says, or does it fit with a random Godless universe where you wouldn't expect a specific answer."

That's a false dichotomy. In the future, for this thread, keep it to yourself.

If you keep talking about all this "accident" nonsense, then I'll just stop replying to you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2017 3:41 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Prev1
2
3Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017