Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 116 (8752 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-28-2017 8:01 PM
117 online now:
14174dm, frako, kjsimons, LamarkNewAge, Tangle, Tanypteryx (6 members, 111 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: DeliverUsFromEvolution
Post Volume:
Total: 809,171 Year: 13,777/21,208 Month: 3,259/3,605 Week: 45/556 Day: 45/54 Hour: 0/2

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
Author Topic:   Dialogue with a Nonbeliever
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15929
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 31 of 41 (796815)
01-04-2017 10:04 PM


See, this is what happens when you have an actual dialogue with actual non-believers: their knowledge of the facts, and your profound lack of knowledge, makes you look like an ignorant charlatan.
  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1702
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(2)
Message 32 of 41 (796820)
01-04-2017 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Theodorus
01-04-2017 2:46 PM


If there are transitional fossils, where are they hidden?

When you come to understand the theory of evolution you will understand that all of the fossils are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Theodorus, posted 01-04-2017 2:46 PM Theodorus has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5787
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 33 of 41 (796821)
01-04-2017 10:42 PM


Transitionals
If there are transitional fossils, where are they hidden?

When you come to understand the theory of evolution you will understand that all of the fossils are transitional.


And there are museums full of transitionals, and libraries full of the supporting documentation.

But those venues seem to repel creationists like garlic repels vampires. (And they'd deny, ignore, or obfuscate anything that didn't confirm their beliefs even if they studied all of that evidence.)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12688
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 34 of 41 (796832)
01-05-2017 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Theodorus
01-04-2017 2:46 PM


Gould on Transitionals...
...is dealt with here Quote Mine Project

It covers the usual quotes - including "smooth" transitions and Gould's view of Archaeopteryx is mentioned. References are provided.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Theodorus, posted 01-04-2017 2:46 PM Theodorus has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18478
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 35 of 41 (796842)
01-05-2017 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Theodorus
01-04-2017 12:29 PM


The Quote Mine Project
Evolutionist Stephen J. Gould clearly stated that there are no transitional fossils. Still, he was not a creationist. He believed evolution happened only at certain moments, and so fast, that it left no traces in the fossil record (punctuated equilibrium).

Creationists have quote mined (ie taken quotes out of context) to falsely bear witness to what he said so many times that there is a whole project dedicated to correcting them:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part3.html

I suggest you read it.

If you have trouble understanding it then ask questions.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Theodorus, posted 01-04-2017 12:29 PM Theodorus has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18478
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 36 of 41 (796843)
01-05-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Theodorus
01-04-2017 12:29 PM


the airplane in a junk yard PRATT
Fred Hoyle is the author of this famous quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/...yard_tornado#Hoyle.27s_statement . Yes still, he did not believe in God.

This is also a well known PRATT -- point refuted a thousand times -- and you can find on the PRATT LIST

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

It is PRATT CF002.1:

quote:
Claim CF002.1:
Order does not spontaneously form from disorder. A tornado passing through a junkyard would never assemble a 747.
Source:
Hoyle, Fred, 1983. The Intelligent Universe. New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, pp. 18-19.
Response:

1. This claim is irrelevant to the theory of evolution itself, since evolution does not occur via assembly from individual parts, but rather via selective gradual modifications to existing structures. Order can and does result from such evolutionary processes.

2. Hoyle applied his analogy to abiogenesis, where it is more applicable. However, the general principle behind it is wrong. Order arises spontaneously from disorder all the time. The tornado itself is an example of order arising spontaneously. Something as complicated as people would not arise spontaneously from raw chemicals, but there is no reason to believe that something as simple as a self-replicating molecule could not form thus. From there, evolution can produce more and more complexity.


So far you are not coming out with any good arguments for your position. Care to try again?

If you want to learn how evolution works, just ask.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Theodorus, posted 01-04-2017 12:29 PM Theodorus has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18478
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 37 of 41 (796847)
01-05-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Theodorus
01-04-2017 2:46 PM


A Smooth Transition
Anyway, I don't want to argue now about what is the right way to interpret Gould's words. ...

Good, because you would lose.

... If there are transitional fossils, where are they hidden? ...

Every fossil is a transitional, an intermediate between ancestor and offspring. But for an example, here is A Smooth Fossil Transition: Pelycodus, a primate

quote:

The dashed lines show the overall trend. The species at the bottom is Pelycodus ralstoni, but at the top we find two species, Notharctus nunienus and Notharctus venticolus. The two species later became even more distinct, and the descendants of nunienus are now labeled as genus Smilodectes instead of genus Notharctus.

As you look from bottom to top, you will see that each group has some overlap with what came before. There are no major breaks or sudden jumps. And the form of the creatures was changing steadily.


Not 10 or 20 but hundreds. This also shows a speciation event where the breeding population divides into two daughter populations that no longer share genetic changes, and thus evolve separately, creating new diversity.

Now I expect you to find this doesn't show much change, and you would be correct. Evolution works that way.

If you want more, ask. It is not a problem being ignorant of the evidence and information ... if you are willing to learn.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : finished

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Theodorus, posted 01-04-2017 2:46 PM Theodorus has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18478
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 38 of 41 (796848)
01-05-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Theodorus
01-04-2017 2:46 PM


From a leg to a wing
... clearly show the transition from a reptilian leg to a bird's wing ...

Would a dinosaur leg with feathers be acceptable as an intermediate for you?

quote:
Feathered dinosaur

A feathered dinosaur is any species of dinosaur possessing feathers. ...

Among extinct dinosaurs, feathers or feather-like integument have been discovered on dozens of genera via both direct and indirect fossil evidence. The vast majority of feather discoveries have been for coelurosaurian theropods. However, integument has also been discovered on at least three ornithischians, raising the likelihood that proto-feathers were also present in earlier dinosaurs, and perhaps even a more ancestral animal, in light of the pycnofibers of pterosaurs. Crocodilians also possess beta keratin very similar to those of birds, which suggests that they evolved from a common ancestral gene.

After a century of hypotheses without conclusive evidence, well-preserved fossils of feathered dinosaurs were discovered during the 1990s, and more continue to be found.


Sinosauropteryx fossil, the first fossil of a definitively non-avialan dinosaur with feathers

The most important discoveries at Liaoning have been a host of feathered dinosaur fossils, with a steady stream of new finds filling in the picture of the dinosaur–bird connection and adding more to theories of the evolutionary development of feathers and flight. Turner et al. (2007) reported quill knobs from an ulna of Velociraptor mongoliensis, and these are strongly correlated with large and well-developed secondary feathers.[9]


A nesting Citipati osmolskae specimen, at the AMNH.

Behavioural evidence, in the form of an oviraptorosaur on its nest, showed another link with birds. Its forearms were folded, like those of a bird.[10] Although no feathers were preserved, it is likely that these would have been present to insulate eggs and juveniles.[11]


Do you agree that these fossils show intermediate development between reptiles and birds?

As always, if you have questions, ask.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Theodorus, posted 01-04-2017 2:46 PM Theodorus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-05-2017 2:02 PM RAZD has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1465
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 39 of 41 (796853)
01-05-2017 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by RAZD
01-05-2017 11:32 AM


Re: From a leg to a wing
As mentioned earlier, Archaeopteryx is probably the most well-known transitional or intermediate fossil. According to Wikipedia 11 specimens have been found, plus a single feather that may be from Archaeopteryx lithographica. Specimens of Archaeopteryx has a very good discussion and some good photos.

I got to see one of the specimens last June at the Wyoming Dinosaur Center in Thermopolis.

The specimen is inside a glass pyramid and there is a holographic video the appears above it that slowly spins around as it changes from a skeleton into a fleshed out and feathered dinosaur that has front legs that are also wings. It was quite a thrill for me to see this fossil, something I never thought would happen. My wife walked up to me as I stood there and asked why I was crying......

These photos were taken with my phone so the quality is not great, plus the glass pyramid was quite scratched up. I wonder if they ever replace it?

The answer to the question, "where are all the transitional fossils?" is quite obviously, "In museum collections, by the tens of thousands."


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2017 11:32 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by RAZD, posted 01-08-2017 12:17 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18478
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 40 of 41 (796948)
01-08-2017 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tanypteryx
01-05-2017 2:02 PM


Re: From a leg to a wing again
The answer to the question, "where are all the transitional fossils?" is quite obviously, "In museum collections, by the tens of thousands."

And then there is this recent gem:

quote:
First Feathers In Amber Matched To A Specific Dinosaur

Two decades ago, the first imprints of dinosaur feathers created great excitement. However, with the feathers themselves long gone, these impressions couldn't tell us much. More recently, feathers have been found in amber, preserving the original structure in a way rocks do not. However, a discarded feather with no indication of which dinosaur it belonged to is of only limited use to paleontologists.

So the discovery of eight vertebrae from the tail of a 99-million-year-old dinosaur, with feathers attached, is a game changer. The discovery has been announced in Current Biology, and the authors say it “directly informs the evolutionary developmental pathway of feathers.”

The feathers are brown on top with a pale underside. They more closely resemble ornamental plumage in modern birds than flight feathers and lack a well-developed central shaft (rachis), suggesting this was a feature that appeared later in feather evolution. The specimen is so well preserved, we can see that there were two rows of feathers evenly spaced along the tail. Given the age of the dinosaur when it died, the authors are unsure if these are adult feathers or would subsequently be replaced.

The discovery comes with further scientific potential, as scraps of surviving soft tissue can be seen and the high content of ferrous (Fe2+) iron suggests hemoglobin from actual dinosaur blood awaits analysis.


Maybe DNA?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-05-2017 2:02 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1605
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 41 of 41 (796982)
01-09-2017 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Theodorus
01-02-2017 6:15 PM


I think the title of the book is incorrect, as the vast majority of people such as Christians accept the Big Bang Theory, evolutionary theory and that the earth is billions of years old.

A more appropriate title for that book would have been: Dialogue with Otherbelievers: About Science and the Limits of Knowledge, the Big Bang and Evolution, Ancient Christianity & Modern Heterodoxy.

That would have made much more sense.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Theodorus, posted 01-02-2017 6:15 PM Theodorus has not yet responded

    
Prev12
3
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017