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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3664
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.5


(5)
Message 2086 of 2499 (834970)
06-15-2018 8:19 PM


Trump trying to get another lawyer

If image doesn't work (source page)

By the way, did your hear that Justify has declined meeting with Donald Trump, saying "If I wanted to see a horses ass, I would have come in second".

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


    
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1854
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


(5)
Message 2087 of 2499 (835171)
06-18-2018 11:06 PM


Woody's updated song
Woody's Children copyright 2018 Nathan A. Smith with adaptations of Woody's song

The children are all taken and parents now handcuffed
Then piled into the buses to strip them away
Driven back down over the Mexican border
Back to the terrors they'd struggled to escape

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have a name when you sleep in the cages,
All you will have is a numbered tattoo

The mother's own mother, she'd waded that river,
Still they took all the money she'd made with her skill;
Her brothers and sisters come to flee from the danger,
But they all been sent back till they're captured and killed.

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have a name when you sleep in the cages,
All you will have is a numbered tattoo

Now some of 'em are illegal, and all are not wanted,
These families fleeing from the gang lands of grief;
Over six hundred miles from that Mexican border,
Where they're treated like outlaws, like rustlers, like thieves.

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have a name when you sleep in the cages,
All you will have is a numbered tattoo

Is this the best way we can heal our sick country?
Is this the best way? the best we can do?
To watch the authorities lock up these children
In cages with nothing but a numbered tattoo

....

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have a name when you sleep in the cages,
All you will have is a numbered tattoo

-June 18th, 2018


- xongsmith, 5.7d

Replies to this message:
 Message 2098 by ProtoTypical, posted 06-21-2018 9:48 PM xongsmith has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17655
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2088 of 2499 (835317)
06-21-2018 12:56 PM


Warning: You Might Cry
Writing in today's Washington Post Assistant Federal Public Defender Erik Hanshew describes the impact of Trump's program separating immigrant children from their parents: Families will no longer be separated at the border. But where are my clients’ kids?. Read the article, but here are some excerpts:

quote:
In the wake of the Trump administration’s policy to purposely separate parents and children at the U.S.-Mexico border, my clients now ask: Where is my little girl? Who’s taking care of her? When do I get to see her again? Will they deport me without her? How will she be protected and by whom? How can I talk with her? Who will give her medicine if she’s sick? Gone are concerns about sentencing. It’s all about the parent and the missing child, separated not just by plexiglass and jail bars but by a gulf of the unknown. The president Wednesday signed an executive order ending the policy, but that changes nothing for my clients or the thousands of other parents who have already lost their kids at the border.
...
I have to explain to these parents that I might never be able to answer their questions. I can’t promise that they’ll be able to speak to their children, or know their whereabouts or who is taking care of them, or whether they’ll be sent back home without their kids.

Why so many unknowns? This administration appears to have no infrastructure, policy or plan in place to deal with the destruction of families seeking refuge or a new life in our country. The disarray and confusion are on full display at the detention hearings I’ve attended for my clients.
...
At another hearing before a different judge, as one of my colleagues asked the agent on the stand about the whereabouts of my client’s child, the prosecutor objected to the relevance of the questions. The judge turned on the prosecutor, demanding to know why this wasn’t relevant. At one point, he slammed his hand on the desk, sending a pen flying. This type of emotional display is unheard of in federal court. I can’t understand this, the judge said. If someone at the jail takes your wallet, they give you a receipt. They take your kids, and you get nothing? Not even a slip of paper?


Read the article.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 2089 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2018 1:36 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6084
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 2089 of 2499 (835320)
06-21-2018 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2088 by Percy
06-21-2018 12:56 PM


Re: Warning: You Might Cry
I can understand Trump doing this kind of uncaring, unthinking monstrous stuff - he's an uncomplicated arsehole.

What I don't get is why the instututions that had to do this work and deal with the consequeces didn't immediately refuse, rebel, resist, campaign - something. They seemed to just co-operate.

It's not a popular or even reasonable comparison but it is reminiscent of the compliance Hitler got. Bit of a worry.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2088 by Percy, posted 06-21-2018 12:56 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 2090 by jar, posted 06-21-2018 1:48 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 2091 by Stile, posted 06-21-2018 1:56 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30845
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2090 of 2499 (835321)
06-21-2018 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2089 by Tangle
06-21-2018 1:36 PM


Re: Warning: You Might Cry
There is a large section of the population that applaud his actions.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2089 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2018 1:36 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3234
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 2091 of 2499 (835322)
06-21-2018 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2089 by Tangle
06-21-2018 1:36 PM


Re: Warning: You Might Cry
Tangle writes:

I can understand Trump doing this kind of uncaring, unthinking monstrous stuff - he's an uncomplicated arsehole.

I don't know exactly what part you're talking about, but this is the situation as I understand it.
I might be wrong.

A while ago (Obama administration? Before that?)
-Policy was that kids and parents would not be separated at border.
-If you illegally came to the border with your kid and refused to leave, you would be given a court date to deal with your illegal entry and sent into the US along with your child (staying together).
-This was so that you don't jail a kid and keep them in the same jail as adults (which you would have to do if you jailed the adult and "didn't separate" their child from them) for their parents' crime of illegal entry.

The problem:
-Some people would steal a kid and take them to the border pretending to be the kids' parent.
-Such people (according to the above policy) would then get a court date and be released into the US with their kid.
-They would never show up in court.
-The kid would be found dead in the surrounding desert as they were "no longer needed" for the person who stole them and used them to cross the border.

So... what do you do?
Do you jail kids with parents?
Do you allow kids to die?

So, they changed the policy (during Obama administration, I think?)
-Policy is that parents are jailed for crossing the border illegally.
-Kids are then held in another area so that they cannot be left to die if the "parent" isn't actually a parent.
-Pictures of "kids in cages" were taken. Some of these same pictures (taken under the Obama administration) have surfaced as showing how much of a dick Trump is for keeping kids in cages.

Trump inherited this policy from previous administration (pretty sure?)
-Now, from the recent pressure, the policy is being changed again so that kids and parents are not separated.
-But are kids now being jailed with their parents for their parents' crimes?

I don't have a best-answer for this situation.
Just wanted to point out that:

1 - Separating kids from parents and putting them "in cages" was not Trump's idea. He inherited that policy.
2 - That policy was put in place so that a) Those kids aren't held in the prison system with other criminal adults for committing no crime themselves and b) To keep those kids from being left to die alone in the desert.

Is it "better" now?
I dunno.
What do some of the kids think that go through it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2089 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2018 1:36 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2092 by DrJones*, posted 06-21-2018 2:27 PM Stile has responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1711
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 2092 of 2499 (835324)
06-21-2018 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2091 by Stile
06-21-2018 1:56 PM


Re: Warning: You Might Cry
A compare and contrast of how children were handled under the previous administrations.

http://www.cbc.ca/...rld/us-immigration-fact-check-1.4711267


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2091 by Stile, posted 06-21-2018 1:56 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2093 by Stile, posted 06-21-2018 2:45 PM DrJones* has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3234
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 2093 of 2499 (835325)
06-21-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2092 by DrJones*
06-21-2018 2:27 PM


Re: Warning: You Might Cry
DrJones* writes:

A compare and contrast of how children were handled under the previous administrations.

I think that basically agrees with what I said.
Apart from the point where the Trump administration's immigration policies have made the separations more-frequent (I think? It wasn't really clear on this).

But the general conundrum is still there.
And I think it would be there for any country with border policies.

You will have people coming to the border illegally who have kids.
What do you do?

Do you turn them away and consider it "not my problem?" What if they continually come back or don't leave?
Do you jail the parents, and jail their kids with them to keep them together? Is this not punishing the child for the crime of the parent? What else can you do with the child? How long do you hold them? What if you release them after their sentence and they continually come back or don't leave?
Do you jail the parent and "hold" the child in some sort of child-care place? How do you take care of these kids?
Do you release the parent and child into your country and give the parent a court date hoping they will show? And also hoping that they didn't scam you and won't leave the kid for dead now that they got inside the country?

I don't see any really "good" or "efficient" solutions.
Does the problem lie in having "illegals" come to the border in the first place? That is - adjust policies so that you identify more as "not illegal" instead of identifying more as "illegal?" --- This seems to be what the Trump administration has done - identifying more as "illegal" - and therefore shedding more light on the terrible-choices-for-solutions on what to do next.

Does that frame the situation a little better?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2092 by DrJones*, posted 06-21-2018 2:27 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2094 by Percy, posted 06-21-2018 3:03 PM Stile has responded
 Message 2095 by DrJones*, posted 06-21-2018 3:11 PM Stile has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17655
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2094 of 2499 (835326)
06-21-2018 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 2093 by Stile
06-21-2018 2:45 PM


Re: Warning: You Might Cry
Where are you getting your information?

Stile writes:

So, they changed the policy (during Obama administration, I think?)
-Policy is that parents are jailed for crossing the border illegally.
-Kids are then held in another area so that they cannot be left to die if the "parent" isn't actually a parent.
-Pictures of "kids in cages" were taken. Some of these same pictures (taken under the Obama administration) have surfaced as showing how much of a dick Trump is for keeping kids in cages.

Uh, no.

DrJones* writes:

A compare and contrast of how children were handled under the previous administrations.

http://www.cbc.ca/...rld/us-immigration-fact-check-1.4711267

Stile writes:

I think that basically agrees with what I said.

Uh, no.

While Bush, Obama and Trump all faced the same difficult problems, only Trump separated parents from their children while, as it appears right now, failing to keep records making reuniting them possible.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2093 by Stile, posted 06-21-2018 2:45 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2096 by Stile, posted 06-21-2018 3:37 PM Percy has responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1711
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


(1)
Message 2095 of 2499 (835327)
06-21-2018 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2093 by Stile
06-21-2018 2:45 PM


Re: Warning: You Might Cry
I think that basically agrees with what I said.

not really, the obama era kids in cages were unaccompanied minors, kids caught trying to cross on their own. under obama kids were detained with their parents, until a court ruling prevented it, at that time they started releasing families under orders to appear at a later immigration hearing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2093 by Stile, posted 06-21-2018 2:45 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2097 by Stile, posted 06-21-2018 3:45 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3234
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 2096 of 2499 (835328)
06-21-2018 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2094 by Percy
06-21-2018 3:03 PM


Re: Warning: You Might Cry
Easy big fella, I'm just trying to learn a few things and investigate the truth on a few questions I have.
Did you notice all the question marks in my first message? They should indicate to you that I'm trying to ask and learn here... not force some preconceived notion.

I'm perfectly willing to learn more and adjust my thoughts accordingly.

Percy writes:

Where are you getting your information?

I found information from things like this:

Kids in cages at border under Obama and Trump

If there are pictures of kids in cages separated from their parents under the Obama administration... then it happened, no?
If you don't think so... could you elaborate on how these pictures exist a bit more than "Uh, no."
That doesn't help me learn much of anything and seems to be entirely refuted by the pictures.

And this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/...tration-separate-families-n884856

quote:
MPI’s Pierce said that the likely reason data aren’t available on child separations under previous administrations is because it was done in “really limited circumstances” such as suspicion of trafficking or other fraud.

There's not much (any?) data because it didn't happen much during the previous administrations.
But "not much" isn't "none" - if it was none, there would be no pictures of it.

Therefore... anyone trying to say it was "none" before all of this is not interested in discussing the truth.

The problem seems to be that Trump's policies have labelled (many) more people as "illegals" (the part he changed).

And none of this gets into the larger question:

1 - Do you want to label anyone coming to your border as "illegal?"

If no - then problem solved.

2 - If yes, what do you do if you label someone as "illegal" and they have kids with them?
-how do you protect the child?
-how do you punish the adult?
-how do you prevent abuse from taking place that could lead to harm coming to the children (fake 'parents' at the border just to get across)
-is there a good answer to this problem?

3 - if you cannot find a good answer for the "illegal" problem, should you simply focus on reducing the number of people you mark as "illegal?"
-the harder you make it for someone to be labelled as "illegal" the more criminals will actually cross your border... are you okay with this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2094 by Percy, posted 06-21-2018 3:03 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2101 by Percy, posted 06-22-2018 8:12 AM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3234
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 2097 of 2499 (835330)
06-21-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2095 by DrJones*
06-21-2018 3:11 PM


Re: Warning: You Might Cry
DrJones* writes:

not really, the obama era kids in cages were unaccompanied minors, kids caught trying to cross on their own.

Some were. Maybe most.
But all? I don't think you can simply say that without proof.
And the proof doesn't seem to exist as the data wasn't collected.

Maybe all.
But I don't think you can say definitely all.

under obama kids were detained with their parents, until a court ruling prevented it, at that time they started releasing families under orders to appear at a later immigration hearing.

Yeah.

I don't really like either of those situations.

One side you have kids being jailed with criminal-adults for crimes their parents committed.
The other side you have the potential of using kids to abuse your border crossing policies (potentially resulting in dead kids after the border cross is over).

But it's possible that "the best solution" is still one that contains certain unavoidable issues.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2095 by DrJones*, posted 06-21-2018 3:11 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

    
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1768
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 2098 of 2499 (835344)
06-21-2018 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2087 by xongsmith
06-18-2018 11:06 PM


Re: Woody's updated song
copyright 2018

You know don't get me wrong but this is a big part of the problem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2087 by xongsmith, posted 06-18-2018 11:06 PM xongsmith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2099 by xongsmith, posted 06-22-2018 12:32 AM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1854
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


Message 2099 of 2499 (835351)
06-22-2018 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 2098 by ProtoTypical
06-21-2018 9:48 PM


Re: Woody's updated song
ProtoTypical writes:
copyright 2018
You know don't get me wrong but this is a big part of the problem.

Yeah...should credit Guthrie as well and Martin Hoffman (music).

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2098 by ProtoTypical, posted 06-21-2018 9:48 PM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17655
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2100 of 2499 (835364)
06-22-2018 7:18 AM


The Trump Stew: Hate, Maliciousness, Heartlessness
He hates immigrants, he wants them to suffer, and he doesn't care how much they suffer. Separating children from their parents is the greatest injury. Childhood trauma could last a lifetime. One immigrant parent has already committed suicide.

Compounding the problem is that my suspicion yesterday that the records necessary for reuniting families might not have been created let alone kept might be the reality. Today's Washington Post reports that Family Reunification a Complete Snafu. Some excerpts:

quote:
The U.S. government has done little to help with the reunifications, attorneys say, prompting them to launch a frantic, improvised effort to find the children — some of them toddlers.
...
One legal aid organization, the Texas Civil Rights Project, is representing more than 300 parents and has been able to track down only two children.
...
Government officials say they have given detained parents a flier with a toll-free number for the Office of Refugee Resettlement, the U.S. agency that is usually in charge of providing shelter for unaccompanied immigrant children. But not a single one of Goodwin’s clients had received one, she said. Lawyers maintain that when they have called the number, often no one answered. In some cases, when someone did pick up, that person refused to offer details of where children had been taken, the lawyers said.
...
Because of such complications, attorneys and former U.S. officials have begun speaking about the possibility of “permanent separations.”
...
The U.S. government spent months developing the family-separation system, but authorities were struggling on Thursday to figure out how to reunite detained parents with children. There was no system for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which handled the parents’ cases, to work on the issue with the refu­gee resettlement office, which is responsible for the children.

Someone asked how the rank and file who implement government policy could do this to families, but most of them are just doing their jobs. In the same way that doctors and nurses become desensitized to the suffering of their patients (they have to be or they couldn't do their jobs), those manning the care centers and the offices and logistics and so forth are just doing their jobs, but there is one job category that should have done some careful thinking and decided whether they could live with themselves, and if the answer was that they could then they should have asked a second question about what that says about themselves. I'm talking about that branch of the Border Patrol (more formally, US Customs and Border Protection) responsible for actually separating children from their parents.

But it's not easy. We say that "I was just following orders" is no excuse, but not following orders has very real consequences, such as loss of job, loss of income, loss of career, and when someone refuses to carry out a separation then someone else will just step in and do it, so what has been accomplished?

Short personal story: The first time my company lied to me about why I was being asked to lay off an employee I vowed to get out of management. I didn't want to lose my job or change my role in a way that reduced my income, which would have affected my family, so it was three years before I able to transfer into a technical role. Sparing the details, after that I engaged in practices that made me perpetually unpopular with management, which has consequences regarding advancement, promotions and opportunities. Border Patrol people on the forefront of family separation also face the same personal issues.

Complicating matters is that the USCIS (US Citizenship and Immigration Service, used to be the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS)) handles contact with family members living in the US with whom the separated children might be placed while waiting for their parents immigration status to be resolved. But if those family members are illegals, as is frequently the case, they do not dare engage in contact with USCIS for fear of arrest, so they do not come forward. This is a new problem introduced by the Trump administration, because placement of children used to be handled by a different department outside of Homeland Security, probably the Office of Refugee Resettlement, the same office that is responsible for the children's care.

This is how the Nazis succeed. Sorry for going this route, but it's the right route in this case. Usually the news is about only the most senior personnel in government, but government policies are carried out by people we rarely hear of who know they have to follow those policies or suffer very real consequences. You don't stop the Nazis by refusing to follow their orders - that just isn't going to happen on any useful scale. You stop the Nazis by not putting them in power in the first place. Hitler is the poster child for bending a country to his attitudes and will, Edogan in Turkey is following the same template, and Trump may not be far behind. Our democracy is in very real danger.

--Percy


    
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