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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 2131 of 2540 (835784)
07-01-2018 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2129 by Percy
07-01-2018 7:40 AM


Re: Note the one on lower right is from 1941
There is another even more horrific aspect to the unrestrained capitalism. First, as you can see the practice was not restricted to remote areas but found even in urban areas. Second, since the script was not transferable a worker could not even save anything that could be used to transfer to some other company or location.

Also, the fight to stop the creation of unions or require wages to be paid in common currency extended through many industries, particularly in the cotton mills all the way into the 1980s. The Greensboro Massacre (opposing the Klan and corporatism) was in 1979.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2129 by Percy, posted 07-01-2018 7:40 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2132 by Percy, posted 07-01-2018 5:58 PM jar has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17734
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2132 of 2540 (835818)
07-01-2018 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2131 by jar
07-01-2018 9:26 AM


Re: Note the one on lower right is from 1941
I was checking the coin images more closely and noticed some odd incongruities. The coins are stamped with "MA", "C" and "+", and the information on opposite sides doesn't match:

StampSide 1 InfoSide 2 Info
MAAnderson Cotton MillOsborne Register
Cincinnati, Ohio
CIngle-Schierloh Co.
Dayton, Ohio
Central, South Carolina
+The Osborne Register Co.
Cincinnati, Ohio
Anderson Chemical & Mercantile Co.
Anderson, South Carolina

I think I figured this out. I think all the coins are from Anderson Cotton Mill, which was located in Anderson, SC. It's in the middle of nowhere halfway between Charlotte and Atlanta. Central, SC, is just a short distance away, so I'm guessing that that coin is for the same company, since no name is on it.

Two of the coins were minted by The Osborne Register Co. in Cincinnati, Ohio, and the other by Ingle-Schierloh Co. in Dayton, Ohio. Tokens minted by companies like these were widely used by merchants of the period (I think from roughly the late nineteenth century through the first half of the twentieth century) to ease the tracking of credit. They would issue a customer tokens in an amount recorded in a ledger, which was the customer's debt to the merchant. The customer could then use the tokens to buy items from the merchant. The customer's debt remained on the books until paid off in actual cash.

The system was open to abuse, which is the issue you've raised. Companies could pay their employees in coupons or tokens that were only good in the company store or stores. Company stores could charge whatever prices they wanted since employees couldn't use their wages anywhere else. Reading up on this, scrip could be exchanged for cash at a discounted rate, maybe 90 cents on the dollar at the store, but 75 cents at other places, and apparently as low as 25 cents on the dollar.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2131 by jar, posted 07-01-2018 9:26 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2133 by jar, posted 07-01-2018 7:47 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 2133 of 2540 (835821)
07-01-2018 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2132 by Percy
07-01-2018 5:58 PM


Re: Note the one on lower right is from 1941
The coins are from three different companies, all cotton mills. But the mills also owned most of the housing and even things like the graveyard and could simply expel "agitators". There were about a dozen different script makers, mostly in the north east.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2132 by Percy, posted 07-01-2018 5:58 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 2134 by Coragyps, posted 07-01-2018 9:08 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5348
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 2134 of 2540 (835822)
07-01-2018 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2133 by jar
07-01-2018 7:47 PM


Re: Note the one on lower right is from 1941
About 140 miles east of me is a little ghost town named Thurber. It claims the title of the “birthplace of the labor movement in Texas,” as it was a mining town around 1900. They had scrip, company stores, and armed security guards whose focus was apparently not on keeping outsiders away. There were once 5000 or so workers, divided up into Polish, Mexican, Black, Italian, and so on - and there are cemeteries still divvied up on those same plans. The restaurant on the south side of I-20 there documents a lot of this - dozens of pictures and stuff on the walls. I’m pretty sure that my favorite anarchist, Praxedis Guerrero Guerrero, was involved in the labor struggle there.
The coal gave out, and the Ranger oil boom about thirty miles west of there took up some of the slack about 1915. I met a man here that helped dig the trench for the pipeline for that oil to Port Arthur, 200+ miles away. With picks and shovels.

Edited by Coragyps, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2133 by jar, posted 07-01-2018 7:47 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3236
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 2135 of 2540 (835873)
07-03-2018 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2127 by Percy
06-30-2018 12:35 PM


Re: A Disaster of a Day
Percy writes:

If a small percentage of non-union members do not pay union dues then the union is minimally impacted, but if that small percentage grows too large then the union can no longer afford to carry out union activities, and the union dies.

What makes you think the union would actually die?
Isn't it quite possible that the union would merely weaken?

I agree if a small percentage of non-union members don't pay the fees - then the union is minimally impacted.
And if a large percentage don't pay the fees - then the union would be largely impacted (and maybe even die).

But if a large percentage aren't paying the fees - isn't this an indication that the union itself is charging too much for the services it is rendering to it's members?
Sounds like a decent balancing mechanism at this point to have more and more people not paying union fees rather than giving the union itself a "monopoly" where union leaders could make bad decisions and take advantage of the union members.

So if we have a large percentage not paying the fees - then the union would weaken. As more and more refuse to pay the fees.
Perhaps the union even dies.

And the company continues to move forward. As the union weakens, maybe the company starts to take advantage of the workers... less raises, less perks... and the workers fall behind industry standards.

So... what's stopping the workers from creating another union at this point?
Or making the existing-but-weak one strong again?

No one's proposing rules that prevent unions from existing. Only a rule that can cause them to weaken - as decided by the very workers the union is intended to protect.

There's a strong analogy with the anti-vaccination movement.

I don't think there is.

With vaccines - there's nothing else in place to prevent diseases from spreading if they are not used.
With unions - there's plenty of laws now that prevent many things from occurring even if the unions disappeared completely.

For example, wiki says that company scripts are illegal in the UK.
Although I couldn't find anything saying they're illegal in the US... I couldn't find much information on them at all. Are they still in use anywhere?

Why not pass a law forbidding scripts rather than refusing to weaken unions at the decision of the workers they are protecting?
If the workers desire protection - then I think it's rather obvious that they'll pay the dues and only an insignificant minority would refuse.

There are also minimum wage laws in place now.
As well as mandatory holidays and hours-worked-per week/day and such labour laws and regulations.

These rules would be in place regardless of the union being present or not.
Therefore... although the vaccine analogy may be loosely used for certain aspects unions provide that are not covered by other laws... the broad usage of the analogy you're using is clearly not a valid analogy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2127 by Percy, posted 06-30-2018 12:35 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2136 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2018 11:35 AM Stile has responded
 Message 2146 by Percy, posted 07-06-2018 11:18 AM Stile has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 2136 of 2540 (835882)
07-03-2018 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 2135 by Stile
07-03-2018 9:23 AM


Re: A Disaster of a Day
But if a large percentage aren't paying the fees - isn't this an indication that the union itself is charging too much for the services it is rendering to it's members?

No, not paying the fee isn't an indication that the service is too dear, particularly when the alternative is to let someone else pay.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2135 by Stile, posted 07-03-2018 9:23 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2137 by Stile, posted 07-03-2018 12:52 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3236
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 2137 of 2540 (835887)
07-03-2018 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2136 by NoNukes
07-03-2018 11:35 AM


Re: A Disaster of a Day
NoNukes writes:

No, not paying the fee isn't an indication that the service is too dear, particularly when the alternative is to let someone else pay.

Too dear?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I was implying that not paying meant the service wasn't dear enough (not good enough) for the payment.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

New guy is hired on.
He gets the same pay and benefits and everything that union members get right now.

He gets a choice to pay union fees, which is obviously less money to him.
This is balanced by the union fighting for more benefits and more pay.

1 - Pay union fees.
Helps union stay strong or get stronger.
Will likely be chosen if current level of pay and benefits are below industry standards.

2 - Do not pay union fees.
Will weaken union.
Will likely be chosen if current level of pay and benefits are above industry standards.

The alternative isn't to "let someone else pay" because if everyone does that then there is no one else paying. The union weakens and then the workers may eventually be under industry standards.
At this point more workers would likely understand the benefits of the union to them personally and pay the fees.

Your idea only seems to make sense when an insignificant portion of the workforce is not paying the fees.
Sure... you're right for the 1%. But who cares since it's meaningless?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2136 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2018 11:35 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2138 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2018 1:05 PM Stile has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 2138 of 2540 (835888)
07-03-2018 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2137 by Stile
07-03-2018 12:52 PM


Re: A Disaster of a Day
Too dear?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I was implying that not paying meant the service wasn't dear enough (not good enough) for the payment.

Yes. I meant that the price was too high.

He gets a choice to pay union fees, which is obviously less money to him.
This is balanced by the union fighting for more benefits and more pay.

Except this is not the choice. The union negotiates as best they can. But non-union folks can now get the same deal for nothing. If they are long-sighted they may take into account that the union may fall if they don't pay, but they might act out of other motives and rely on other folks paying.

So there is no implication by not paying that the service is not worthwhile. That is, of course, one possibility, but not paying is not evidence that the service is not worthwhile.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2137 by Stile, posted 07-03-2018 12:52 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2139 by Stile, posted 07-03-2018 2:04 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3236
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 2139 of 2540 (835893)
07-03-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2138 by NoNukes
07-03-2018 1:05 PM


Re: A Disaster of a Day
NoNukes writes:

So there is no implication by not paying that the service is not worthwhile. That is, of course, one possibility, but not paying is not evidence that the service is not worthwhile.

I think we're talking about different things meaning "the service" for this statement in contention.
And, personally, I'm not very attached to that statement. I'm more attached to my idea of ebb-and-flow for unions and how viable that might be in helping the company move along in a healthy way for all involved (workers and employers).

I'm not even going to mention "the service" and see if you think anything doesn't make sense in this idea:

Union has done a fantastic job - workers are now getting above-industry-standards compensation (pay and benefits/perks) for their work.
On average:
-most new workers will likely not pay the union fees. They're already getting more than industry standards, there's likely some limit the company can realistically pay.
-new workers will likely want to pocket the union fee themselves
-if this trend continues, union will eventually have fewer members and grow weaker
-weaker union will have less bargaining power with the company
-yearly raises become lower and lower
-eventually, if this trend continues, we get to:

Union is weak and unable to negotiate well - workers are not getting below-industry-standards compensation for their work.
On average:
-most new workers will likely pay the union fees. They're trying to band together and get the company to pay them what they deserve.
-if this trend continues, union will eventually have many members and grow stronger
-stronger union will have more bargaining power with the company
-yearly raises become more and more
-eventually, new hires will start to not-pay the union fees and we cycle around to the top where the union has done a fantastic job again...

Do you see any reason why such a scenario wouldn't work? Or why it might be bad (detrimental to the point of abuse) for workers or bad (detrimental to the point of having to go out of business) for the company?

In this sort of scenario - workers don't have to have any long-term view. They just do whatever's best for them at the time.

When I said "not paying indicates that the service from the union isn't worthwhile.." I'm not saying that the current-service from the union is poor. I'm saying that the current-service from the union is actually great - the workers are in a fantastic position - however, this means that the union is actually "not necessary" at this time. If the union is not necessary... then their services are not worthwhile for the dues payment... when everything's going great for the worker because of past union success.

The argument could be that a constant union is always necessary.
But I don't see much of a difference between a constant union and a constant threat of a union (a union that could be created instantly by workers at any time.) Other than the real union would get dues when no more union-work is currently required (workers are already doing great).

I am assuming that workers can join/leave unions at any time.
Or minimally - on short contracts. Is this true?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2138 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2018 1:05 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2140 by jar, posted 07-03-2018 2:47 PM Stile has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 2140 of 2540 (835895)
07-03-2018 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2139 by Stile
07-03-2018 2:04 PM


Re: A Disaster of a Day
Stile writes:

But I don't see much of a difference between a constant union and a constant threat of a union (a union that could be created instantly by workers at any time.) Other than the real union would get dues when no more union-work is currently required (workers are already doing great).

I am assuming that workers can join/leave unions at any time.
Or minimally - on short contracts. Is this true?

Not quite.

It is not easy to create a Union under US laws, much less create one that the companies need to recognize. The only real power is the possibility of mass walkouts and in most cases the company is then free to simply replace the striking workers.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2139 by Stile, posted 07-03-2018 2:04 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2141 by Stile, posted 07-03-2018 3:01 PM jar has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3236
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 2141 of 2540 (835896)
07-03-2018 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 2140 by jar
07-03-2018 2:47 PM


Re: A Disaster of a Day
jar writes:

The only real power is the possibility of mass walkouts and in most cases the company is then free to simply replace the striking workers.

Agreed.

It is not easy to create a Union under US laws, much less create one that the companies need to recognize.

Ah... now this is an issue for my idea.
(In the sense of exchange-of-information - I have no idea how easy/hard it is to create a union in Canada. I would assume the process is similar to America.)

This issue would have to be overcome with the right regulations behind recognizing unions that are required and expectations that they might grow weaker or even non-existent (dormant?) for years without being required again before anything like my idea was implemented. If unions are too difficult to form (with full recognition) a company could easily create a strategy to push the union into a weakened state and keep it there for their own profit. That would not help workers.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2140 by jar, posted 07-03-2018 2:47 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2142 by jar, posted 07-03-2018 3:20 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 2142 of 2540 (835897)
07-03-2018 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2141 by Stile
07-03-2018 3:01 PM


Re: A Disaster of a Day
Consider the effects of the recent SCOTUS ruling on Class Action Law Suits.

If banding together to try to force companies to obey the existing laws is prohibited I'm not sure how a new union could even be formed.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2141 by Stile, posted 07-03-2018 3:01 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3668
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 2143 of 2540 (835904)
07-03-2018 11:37 PM


Merrick Garland revisited (from 2 years ago)
quote:
Orrin Hatch once said there was “no question” Merrick Garland could be confirmed to the Supreme Court.

Hatch is one of the most respected U.S. senators and has served as chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee on three separate occasions. Hatch has also been an outspoken advocate of the Republican strategy to wait to confirm a Supreme Court nominee until after the presidential election in November, recently telling the Federalist Society that this was “the chickens coming home to roost” for the Obama Administration.

But Hatch has also been a long-time advocate for Merrick Garland, who President Obama will nominate to the Supreme Court on Wednesday. In 2010, when he was considered for the slot that ultimately went to Elena Kagan, Hatch said that he had known Garland for years. He added that, if nominated, he would be a “consensus nominee” and that there was “no question” he would be confirmed.

And just last week, he praised Garland and indicated he was a qualified candidate, saying, “The president told me several times he’s going to name a moderate [to fill the court vacancy], but I don’t believe him. [Obama] could easily name Merrick Garland, who is a fine man. He probably won’t do that because this appointment is about the election. So I’m pretty sure he’ll name someone the [liberal Democratic base] wants.”

By nominating Garland, Obama has put Republicans like Hatch on their back foot. They’ll argue that this is about process—about waiting for the American people to decide. Obama’s nomination of Garland is a transparently political maneuver that shows just how transparently political his opponents are being.


My "big print".

Source

Hatch later turned against Merrick Garland.

I think the Democrats should relentlessly pummel the Republicans with variations of the "big print" quotation information.

Like "Orren Hatch once said that if the President wants the cooperation of of the opposing party, he should nominate a moderate like Merrick Garland". Or something like that.

Percy has repeatedly stated that he does not hate Donald Trump. Well, I'll take the lead - I hate Donald Trump. My adjective/noun choice is "narcissistic boob", although it's hard to not go with the classic "flaming asshole".

And to those retiring Republican Senators (Jeff Flake, Bob Corker, and ???) who would rather quit than fight, I say "If you don't like the actions of the lunatic right wing Republican party, vote against those lunatic right wing actions".

And yes, I'm still pissed off about the railroading (for lack of a better term) of Al Franken. I'm very slowly working on putting a new message out at the Al Franken topic.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3668
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 2144 of 2540 (835973)
07-06-2018 12:50 AM


Scott Pruitt resigns from EPA
I found out via https://mic.com/...s-after-scandal-plagued-tenure#.7oagzXwhF

The full title there:

"Scott Pruitt resigns from EPA in letter claiming “God’s providence” brought him into Trump’s service"

quote:
Trump announced Pruitt’s resignation on Twitter Thursday afternoon following weeks of negative media attention focused on the EPA head. The president said Pruitt’s deputy, Andrew Wheeler, will now lead the agency.

“I have accepted the resignation of Scott Pruitt as the administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency,” Trump said in a tweet. “Within the agency Scott has done an outstanding job, and I will always be thankful to him for this.


Is there any way this can't be an improvement?

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


Replies to this message:
 Message 2145 by NoNukes, posted 07-06-2018 11:05 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2145 of 2540 (835989)
07-06-2018 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 2144 by Minnemooseus
07-06-2018 12:50 AM


Re: Scott Pruitt resigns from EPA
Is there any way this can't be an improvement?

Nothing significant will change. The next dude will likely promote the same environmental/corporate policies that Pruitt did but will be a bit less of a crook. On the other hand, for all of his corruptness, Pruitt did not really steal all of that much. I don't expect that the access of corporate interests to the EPA will decline all or that there will be an increase in transparency.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2144 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-06-2018 12:50 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
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