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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(3)
Message 2146 of 2611 (835991)
07-06-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2135 by Stile
07-03-2018 9:23 AM


Re: A Disaster of a Day
Stile writes:

Percy writes:

If a small percentage of non-union members do not pay union dues then the union is minimally impacted, but if that small percentage grows too large then the union can no longer afford to carry out union activities, and the union dies.


What makes you think the union would actually die?
...
And if a large percentage don't pay the fees - then the union would be largely impacted (and maybe even die).

You questioned what I said, then agreed with me, except you said "maybe". There's no "maybe" about it. If you reduce the income of any entity sufficiently, be it a business, a union, a non-profit, a church, then it dies (or if you prefer some other term, then it goes bankrupt or decertifies or disbands or ceases operations or whatever). That's just a fact.

But if a large percentage aren't paying the fees - isn't this an indication that the union itself is charging too much for the services it is rendering to it's members?

Never underestimate the influence of ignorance, nonsense and flim-flam. Let's rephrase your question into a different context: "But if a large percentage aren't getting vaccinated - isn't this an indication that vaccination isn't effective?"

Where people are involved nothing is perfect, but we need both employers and unions.

Sounds like a decent balancing mechanism at this point to have more and more people not paying union fees rather than giving the union itself a "monopoly" where union leaders could make bad decisions and take advantage of the union members.

Abuse of power is a problem everywhere, and we could tell stories about abuse of power in all human endeavors, including government, commercial companies, unions, non-profits, charities, churches, and on and on. Examples of abuse of power only tell us that people are the same no matter where they work, not that the entities they work for are bad ideas.

So... what's stopping the workers from creating another union at this point?

A better question might be why there is much less enthusiasm for unions today than 50 and 100 years ago.
Part of the answer must be that the times are different today. Unions rose to power during a period when socialism was also receiving a lot of attention, which isn't true today. Also, too many people see the abuses unions opposed in the past as solved problems, when the reality is that eternal vigilance is necessary to protect the hard won victories of the past.

There's a strong analogy with the anti-vaccination movement.

I don't think there is.

With vaccines - there's nothing else in place to prevent diseases from spreading if they are not used.
With unions - there's plenty of laws now that prevent many things from occurring even if the unions disappeared completely.

Actually, the way you've expressed this, there's a perfect analogy with the anti-vaxers. Anti-vaxers think the problem of disease is solved, and anti-unionists and union agnostics think the problem of worker exploitation is solved. Of course, now that Trump is in charge we don't have to worry about growing corporate power and abuse.

For example, wiki says that company scripts are illegal in the UK.
Although I couldn't find anything saying they're illegal in the US... I couldn't find much information on them at all. Are they still in use anywhere?

Why not pass a law forbidding scripts rather than refusing to weaken unions at the decision of the workers they are protecting?

It's scrip, not scripts. I think Jar raised it as an example of past company abuse, not current, but at the bottom of that Wikipedia page you linked to it cites an example of Walmart using scrip in Mexico in 2008. Anyway, scrip isn't the point. The point is that it's in the company's best interest to get the most work from workers at the least cost. This is an unrelenting motivation for abuse. Unions protect against that.

If the workers desire protection - then I think it's rather obvious that they'll pay the dues and only an insignificant minority would refuse.

The analogy with anti-vaxers pokes its nose out again. We don't need an epidemic to tell us we need vaccines. And workers shouldn't need a return of company abuses to tell them they need unions.

There are also minimum wage laws in place now.
As well as mandatory holidays and hours-worked-per week/day and such labour laws and regulations.

Right, and I'm sure nothing could ever happen to erode these laws and regulations, especially with Trump at the helm.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2135 by Stile, posted 07-03-2018 9:23 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2162 by Stile, posted 07-16-2018 9:33 AM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2147 of 2611 (836020)
07-08-2018 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 2130 by Percy
07-01-2018 8:01 AM


Re: Why am I not surprised?
Returning now to the issue of denuclearization of North Korea, NBC reports this morning that Pompeo shrugs off North Korea's 'gangster' comment, claims progress:

quote:
U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo on Sunday brushed aside North Korea's accusation of "gangster-like" demands, maintaining that his third visit to the country was producing results but vowing that sanctions would remain until Pyongyang follows through on leader Kim Jong Un's pledge to get rid of his nuclear weapons.

This reinforces several things that we've already long known:

  • North Korea will never give up its nuclear weapons.
  • Trump gained nothing when he met with North Korean leader Kim Jung Un, except to give up military coordination exercises with the South Korean military.
  • Trump lied about the success of the meeting.
  • Officials of the Trump administration, Mike Pompeo in this case, also lie.
  • North Korea is just stringing us along.

More from the NBC article:

quote:
The North's statement, coming so soon after Pompeo's trip, was sure to fuel growing skepticism in the U.S. over how serious Kim is about giving up his nuclear arsenal.

Growing skepticism? What growing skepticism? There's been total skepticism since Trump's meeting with Kim Jung Un and even before. The only people stupid enough (sorry) to believe Trump's making progress with North Korean denuclearization are the Trump base, the Trump administration, and Republicans in Congress. Stringing us along is what North Korea does, and their recent nuclear progress was just the most recent opportunity for beginning another round of leading us around by the nose ring. To those who believe there's progress, learn a little history, much of it very recent.

Said Pompeo, "People are going to make stray comments after meetings. If I paid attention to the press, I'd go nuts."

Mr. Pompeo is referring to the statement from the North Korean Foreign Ministry and carried by state-run news agency KCNA. Mr. Pompeo is telling reporters to ignore statements by official outlets of the North Korean government. The truth is that Trump meeting was not a success, the Pompeo meetings were not a success, and any future meetings will not be a success. The Kim dynasty views nuclear weapons as their key to maintaining total power and invulnerability against outside pressures. The Trump administration views "doing stuff" like holding meetings and then declaring them a spectacular success as a tried and true formula for pumping up the base while accomplishing nothing.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2130 by Percy, posted 07-01-2018 8:01 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 2148 by NosyNed, posted 07-08-2018 9:29 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8811
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 2148 of 2611 (836022)
07-08-2018 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2147 by Percy
07-08-2018 7:07 AM


Economist Cover Title
June 22 Economist cover with their usual fun way with words:

"Kim Jong Won"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2147 by Percy, posted 07-08-2018 7:07 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14489
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 2149 of 2611 (836111)
07-10-2018 12:27 AM


U.S. Shenanigans in the WHO
The U.S. opposed a report from the World Health Organisation, in favour of promoting breast feeding as the best way to nourish infants. The U.S. government decided to put the interests of the breast-milk substitute industry ahead of babies’ health.

They even threatened economic sanctions and withdrawing military aid from countries that supported the report.

But Russia sponsored the report and the U.S. wouldn’t go that far against them.

Ars Technica


Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5352
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 2150 of 2611 (836116)
07-10-2018 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 2149 by PaulK
07-10-2018 12:27 AM


Re: U.S. Shenanigans in the WHO
Mindblowing.
What the hell have we become?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2149 by PaulK, posted 07-10-2018 12:27 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 2151 of 2611 (836119)
07-10-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 2150 by Coragyps
07-10-2018 11:06 AM


Re: U.S. Shenanigans in the WHO
A Fascist State.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2150 by Coragyps, posted 07-10-2018 11:06 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6240
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2152 of 2611 (836120)
07-10-2018 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2151 by jar
07-10-2018 11:59 AM


Re: U.S. Shenanigans in the WHO
America first

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2151 by jar, posted 07-10-2018 11:59 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 2153 of 2611 (836122)
07-10-2018 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2152 by Tangle
07-10-2018 1:00 PM


Re: U.S. Shenanigans in the WHO
And extreme Nationalism, a lean towards Fundamentalist Religion, Corporatism (Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission) and aligning education as solely job training. The latter is best exemplified by the suggestion that the Department of Education should be subsumed into the Department of Labor.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2152 by Tangle, posted 07-10-2018 1:00 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2154 of 2611 (836251)
07-13-2018 6:38 AM


Trump Once Again Covers Himself with Glory
Yesterday's Guardian ran an opinion piece declaring Trump not welcome in Britain. I'll let it speak for itself with a few excerpts, but apparently the Trump malevolency is as apparent there as here:

quote:
Mr Trump does not come with a message of peace...but with messages of conflict and disruption. He arrives not as the optimistic upholder of an international order but as its casual potential destroyer. Mr. Trump arrives...as the vengeful tribune of might and injustice.
...
There are many reasons for feeling the unusual sense of outrage and violation that attach to the Trump visit to Britain. Mr Trump’s personal character and behaviour are more than enough reason for many. They certainly belong on any list of objections to his presence here, for he is one of the most unsuitable people to hold his great democratic office in American history. But it is Mr Trump’s politics, his expressed views, his actual actions, and above all his effect and his intentions that are the fundamental issues.

The charge list against Mr Trump is long, unignorable and impossible to tolerate. Morally, it is headed by the racism of the immigration policies he was so proud of in Brussels on Thursday, the cruelty of their enforcement, especially in the separation of children from their parents, the racism to which he gives encouragement at home, and the taunting and visceral threat to the rights and dignities of women, people of colour, and LGBT people, who are all now directly threatened by his latest supreme court nomination. He has ignorantly spurned the threat from climate change, has sucked up to tyrants, has conducted an unprecedented campaign against the free press, launched a trade war, insulted America’s allies, praised America’s enemies and made dangerous mischief in the domestic and regional politics of countless parts of the world. Only this week, heading for Europe, he insulted Germany and said meeting Vladimir Putin would be easy work compared with his meetings in Brussels and Britain.
...
Mr Trump...is unique in his egotistical disrespect for international order and agreement, his overt malice towards long-term allies and institutions, his shameless disregard for truth, and his clear willingness to make trouble and do direct harm to European nations like ours.
...
When such a leader spits on the foundations of that alliance and actively promotes values and interests which are hostile to ours, the tough lesson of history is that he should not be honoured and must not be appeased.
...
Before leaving for Britain on Thursday, Mr Trump told the press: “They like me a lot in the UK.” Fake news again. We don’t like him at all. He is not welcome here.


--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 2155 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2018 9:17 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6240
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 2155 of 2611 (836255)
07-13-2018 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2154 by Percy
07-13-2018 6:38 AM


Re: Trump Once Again Covers Himself with Glory
And now he's here he's behaving like a total arsehole.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2154 by Percy, posted 07-13-2018 6:38 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 2156 of 2611 (836287)
07-13-2018 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2150 by Coragyps
07-10-2018 11:06 AM


Re: U.S. Shenanigans in the WHO
Coragyps writes:

What the hell have we become?

40% Putin's whores, 50% Severe Anxiety, 5% Opioid addicts, 5% French Revolution version 2.0.

Vive la France!

P.S. - I hope the CIA is monitoring that unsupervised meeting on Monday twixt textbook early onset dementia and his handler in Helsinki in case he provides the nuclear codes in exchange for a Trump tower.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2150 by Coragyps, posted 07-10-2018 11:06 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5600
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.7


(4)
Message 2157 of 2611 (836288)
07-13-2018 6:10 PM


.50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
I'm still amazed that a large Christian base vociferously supports Trump even though he so obviously could give a crap about Christianity and is pandering to a base. Even at the height of my Republicanism and my Christianity, I could have never supported a more obvious wolf in sheep's clothing. How is this not GLARINGLY OBVIOUS? It makes no sense.

I could only attribute this support to a growing detachment from the actual tenets of Christianity with an amalgamation between American nationalism and Christianity. While I feel you can perfectly be nationalistic and a Christian, there is a clear line that cannot be crossed and still being able to call yourself a Christian. This guy not only steps over the line, he obliterated the line so that any inkling that a line is existed is erased.

While I don't think pacifism is exactly what Jesus called for, the hawkishness of these folks who would call themselves "ordinary Americans" have no real clue who the Jesus of the bible was. He's now become an extension of Americanism -- like some kind of glorified mascot or a cheap caricature of the real personage. Disgusting and idolatrous, if you ask me.

So... any Trumping Christians want to explain to me why I'm wrong?

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : Edit to add emphasis


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

Replies to this message:
 Message 2158 by marc9000, posted 07-15-2018 9:31 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 2165 by Theodoric, posted 07-16-2018 11:07 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
marc9000
Member
Posts: 949
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 2158 of 2611 (836365)
07-15-2018 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2157 by Hyroglyphx
07-13-2018 6:10 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
So... any Trumping Christians want to explain to me why I'm wrong?

I don't know about telling you you're "wrong", but I can explain how Christians support Trump. First though, I'll need to be clear on just what you mean by "wolf in sheep's clothing". Do you mean he pretends to be a Christian and is really not, or do you mean he has something tricky up his sleeve, for a non-Christian act he plans to do in the future?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2157 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2018 6:10 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2159 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2018 12:41 AM marc9000 has responded
 Message 2160 by jar, posted 07-16-2018 8:02 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 2164 by ringo, posted 07-16-2018 12:09 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5600
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2159 of 2611 (836373)
07-16-2018 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 2158 by marc9000
07-15-2018 9:31 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
Do you mean he pretends to be a Christian and is really not, or do you mean he has something tricky up his sleeve, for a non-Christian act he plans to do in the future?

The first one


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2158 by marc9000, posted 07-15-2018 9:31 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2172 by marc9000, posted 07-17-2018 5:38 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 2160 of 2611 (836382)
07-16-2018 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 2158 by marc9000
07-15-2018 9:31 PM


Not all Christians support Trump
Remember, it is only the Christian Cult of Ignorance that supports Trump, not all Christians.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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