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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 2326 of 2663 (837513)
08-04-2018 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2323 by Hyroglyphx
08-04-2018 10:00 AM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
So how about simple legislation that says a state issued i.d.? Simple. A state i.d. is accessible to anyone.

No, they are not necessarily available to everyone. But make the id easily available to everyone, and then let's talk. Don't play games like they have in some states where they shut down the DMV in strategic areas.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2323 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-04-2018 10:00 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2328 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2018 11:38 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 2327 of 2663 (837514)
08-04-2018 11:27 AM


Republicans' voter suppression tactics
Here is an article from the New York Times from last year:

Some Republicans Acknowledge Leveraging Voter ID Laws for Political Gain

It is a list of examples where Republican officials are admitting the the goal of voter ID laws is really to lower the number of Democratic voters who go to the polls.

Money quote #1:

Also in Wisconsin, Todd Allbaugh, 46, a staff aide to a Republican state legislator:

I was in the closed Senate Republican Caucus when the final round of multiple Voter ID bills were being discussed. A handful of the GOP Senators were giddy about the ramifications and literally singled out the prospects of suppressing minority and college voters. Think about that for a minute. Elected officials planning and happy to help deny a fellow American’s constitutional right to vote in order to increase their own chances to hang onto power.

Money quote #2:

But [the previously cited examples of voting fraud] are isolated. And virtually all of them, including the allegations in the St. Louis case, involve schemes like manipulating absentee ballots or falsifying returns that voter ID laws could not detect, much less prevent.

The only fraud that such laws might stop — misrepresentation at a polling place to cast an illegal ballot — is vanishingly rare. And for good reason: To swing most elections, dozens or hundreds of fraudsters would have to conspire to commit easily detected felonies at polling places on behalf of their favored candidate.



Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 2328 of 2663 (837515)
08-04-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 2326 by NoNukes
08-04-2018 11:26 AM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
In my state, it takes two steps to get a photo ID card.

First, I had to bring two forms of ID to a state DMV to "be put into the system". This involved traveling to another city; luckily, my job allows some flexibility to leave during business hours, and I had a retired friend who could drive me.

Then I had to bring the documentation they gave me to my local tag agent to actually get the ID. All for a crappy ID that doesn't even meet the standards of the REAL ID. (In other words, I can't even board a plane with it.)

-

I looked up how to register to vote in this state. Sure enough, all that is required is to download a form, fill it out, sign where you swear that you are over 18 years old, a US citizen, etc., and send it in. Without any documentation.

Supposedly, all you need to cast a vote is the cheesy card board registration card they send. I just found mine; I'm going to try using only that next time I vote.



Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2326 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 11:26 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2330 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 1:10 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply
 Message 2331 by ringo, posted 08-04-2018 1:22 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2329 of 2663 (837518)
08-04-2018 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2314 by Hyroglyphx
08-03-2018 5:20 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
All kinds of shady practices, like people registering dead people to vote, have been implemented as an underhanded tactic to procure more votes.

Really? How often does this happen? I have heard of dead people not being unregistered, but what is the prevalence of fraud of the type you are describing? And why wouldn't the person committing that fraud just use an absentee ballot to vote?

There is an issue with not purging dead people off of the voter registration list, but you are talking about something else. And that is not fraud. That deals with the fact that dead people cannot unregister themselves.

If you believe that, then explain how poor people receive SSI benefits without something as simple as an i.d. card, which is accessible to virtually anyone that puts forth a modicum of effort.

You easily can receive benefits without an ID that is suitable for use to vote. SSI, SSDI, retirement checks, etc. are deposited directly into your bank account. Even if your ID expires, then you can still use an ATM to get your funds. You appear to be deliberately avoiding reality.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2314 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-03-2018 5:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 2330 of 2663 (837521)
08-04-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2328 by Chiroptera
08-04-2018 11:38 AM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
I looked up how to register to vote in this state. Sure enough, all that is required is to download a form, fill it out, sign where you swear that you are over 18 years old, a US citizen, etc., and send it in. Without any documentation.

Thank you. The claim I am rebutting includes the idea that California is somehow doing something different than what other states like, for example, Oklahoma are doing. This is pretty good evidence that such claims are full of crap.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2328 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2018 11:38 AM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2331 of 2663 (837522)
08-04-2018 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2328 by Chiroptera
08-04-2018 11:38 AM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
Chiroptera writes:

Supposedly, all you need to cast a vote is the cheesy card board registration card they send. I just found mine; I'm going to try using only that next time I vote.


We used to have enumerators come around before every election and you'd tell them the name of every eligible voter in the house. Then they'd mail a card to every eligible voter and they were supposed to take it to the polling station - no ID required, and if the polling officer recognized you you didn't even need to show the card.

Now they just make up the voters list from tax records and you have to show ID. I think it's more a matter of reducing costs than trying to prevent illegal voting.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2328 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2018 11:38 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2332 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2018 1:33 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 2332 of 2663 (837523)
08-04-2018 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2331 by ringo
08-04-2018 1:22 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
Heh. When I first voted - in Alaska in the 1980s - all I had to do is tell the poll workers my name. They had a list of all the people registered to vote at that station - they just crossed off my name and handed me a ballot. I may be remembering wrong, but I seem to recall that they were mildly amused that I bothered to take out my registration card to show them.

Sadly, I haven't really paid attention to the procedures in the other states in which I've voted. I'll certainly be more aware this November when I go to the polls.



Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2331 by ringo, posted 08-04-2018 1:22 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 2333 of 2663 (837526)
08-04-2018 2:04 PM


Oregon
I should point out that several states now have automatic voter registration: when you apply for a driver's license (or, in some cases, when you apply for anything in that state), you are automatically registered to vote. You can opt out, but you have to make that decision and tell the clerk. The default is that you are in; you have to opt out to not be registered. So far, Oregon is the only one that has had this long enough to have seen the effects in an election, and it has increased voter participation.

Oregon also does its elections through vote by mail. There are no polling stations, all voting is done by mail. Several weeks before the election, every registered voter is mailed a ballot appropriate for their election district. They fill it out, insert it into the security envelope, then that into the mailing envelope. They then either mail it in (but they have to make sure it's mailed early enough to arrive at the elections office on or before election day), or they can drop it off at a designated drop-off box (they must do this by 8:00 pm on election day). That has definitely increased voter participation.



Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5603
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2334 of 2663 (837528)
08-04-2018 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2321 by Percy
08-04-2018 9:24 AM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
I said "proof of citizenship" and you replied about ID - they're not the same thing.

In most states, a requirement to obtain a driver's license is proof of citizenship. There are, however, Limited-Term Drivers Licenses issued to non-residents with proof of work/school visas. And, at least in Texas, it states the type of license you hold in big, red block letters.

Proof of citizenship is most often a birth certificate. Who do you think is most likely not to have a birth certificate, the poor or the rich?

I don't think that is necessary since in order to obtain an i.d. all that has been previously verified at the DMV.

You're asking how do we prevent voter fraud without accountability? Like laws to punish those who commit voter fraud? Don't such laws already exist?

I'm saying how else are you going to know who is or isn't a legal citizen without identifying who in the fuck you actually are? How else are you going to ensure someone hasn't voted multiple times? How else are you going to know if the person voting is the actual person and not a friend or a family member? A signed affidavit? Thanks. About as helpful as a pinky-promise.

Registering dead people? Sounds labor intensive. Here in New Hampshire voter registration requires proof of residency in the town you're registering, like a driver's license, a rental agreement from the past year, a property tax bill from the past year, a motor vehicle registration from the past year, a tax return from the past year, a dated public utility bill from the past year with your name and address on it, etc. It could be done, but not in any kind of meaningful volume, and certainly not in a small town like mine where the town clerk wouldn't fail to notice the first time you registered as someone else. My town isn't too big

Well, major cities are too big to know one person from the next. But here you are explaining NH's policies which sound even more restrictive than what I'm proposing. So what are you even arguing about?

Presumably one could present one's driver's license and vote as oneself, then return a few hours later and vote as one's deceased father (or mother if you're female) by showing their driver's license (expired ID's are fine if you're over 65), and just hope the same clerk isn't still there and recognizes you.

Hence the necessity of showing your i.d., scanning the friggin barcode on the back that is uniquely assigned to just you. Avoids all of that. I feel like you're unnecessarily complicating things to obfuscate how simple... and reasonable... checking someone's i.d. is.

You just agreed that there's no evidence of voter fraud by illegal immigrants. How could the DNC be pandering to illegal immigrants for votes when there's no evidence of voter fraud by illegal immigrants?

I'm saying Democrats heavily favor all things revolving around immigrants (legal or otherwise). There is an obvious incentive that you're pretending doesn't exist.

Are there any other political parties that pander for votes to their base. Does this look familiar?

Yeah, of course Republicans pander to their base... the issue is only relevant in the given context. The discussion is identifying yourself at a polling station and the reasons why. My only reason in mentioning Democrats and immigrants is to demonstrate the incentive that.

There can be do doubt that those least able to provide documentary evidence of citizenship are the poor and minorities. Voter ID laws that include a proof of citizenship have already been struck down in several states across the country.

The process to register to vote is far more complicated than obtaining a license, Percy. Stop acting like poor people are too dumb or just too marginalized to get something like an i.d.

Second, meaningful evidence is accumulating that voter ID laws disenfranchise the poor and minorities the most, for example Voter ID Laws Really Do Discriminate.

How does it disenfranchise poor and minorities to get an i.d? Ridiculous! 20-25% of the entire U.S. population is on some form of government assistance program. ALL of them are required to show proof of citizenship, proof of who they really are, proof of income, proof of address, etc... they already have i.d. in order to obtain those benefits... so this weak argument that it's just too hard for the poor is a complete fabrication. The "just blame everything on racism/classism" argument isn't a catch-all.

Ami would have received different answers from the black people in this video

If they're on food stamps, Section 8 housing, HUD, TANF, WIC, they already have i.d. See, there's an incentive for obtaining it, and they did, in order to obtain said incentive. One immutable fact about human beings; you can move mountains when money is on the line.

Looking this stuff up, SSI is for blind and disabled adults and poor children. Welfare is for poor adults and families living at or below 200% of the poverty level (deemed low income) or at or below 100% of the poverty level (poverty stricken). Welfare doesn't require a photo ID, they seem to be fairly flexible with regard to IDs.

https://nlsa.us/...ues/tips-on-applying-for-welfare-benefits

So let's imagine you're working poor. You have no Internet, no car, no cell phone. You walk to work or hitch a ride or take public transportation. You never had a birth certificate. Imagine the effort it would take to qualify to vote according to the recently overturned Kansas voter ID law.

Yeah, that's why public libraries and public transportation and the welfare system in general exists... But these people just have to get out to vote, right? You're painting such a false narrative. You're really reaching here... And to think, this is your ONLY argument against identifying people at a polling station.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2321 by Percy, posted 08-04-2018 9:24 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2335 by ringo, posted 08-04-2018 3:45 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 2337 by jar, posted 08-04-2018 4:00 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 2340 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 5:30 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 2350 by Percy, posted 08-05-2018 1:29 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2335 of 2663 (837529)
08-04-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2334 by Hyroglyphx
08-04-2018 3:32 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
Hyroglyphx writes:

How else are you going to know if the person voting is the actual person and not a friend or a family member?


Is that a huge problem? Does it even matter that much? One name can only vote once.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2334 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-04-2018 3:32 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5603
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2336 of 2663 (837530)
08-04-2018 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2322 by Chiroptera
08-04-2018 9:44 AM


Re: Expand the franchise!
Just as a point of fact, all the European democracies, as far as I know, allow people convicted of felonies to vote once they've completed their sentences.

I find that acceptable too if I were king for a day. I personally am of the opinion that once you do your time, you do your time. As it stands in the US, however, you can't ever vote again. My point though had less to do with felons voting than it does with why we have identification in the first place and why something as important as voting wouldn't think that identifying people has no merit. I was just giving an example of why it might be reasonable to identify voters.

Another example is ensuring they are of the legal voting age! I mean, am I really being so unreasonable?

I will say though that the Republicans seem more interested about this particular issue than they do the KNOWN voter fraud committed by Russian intelligence. It benefited them so of course they'll casually shrug that off. The whole voting process in this needs a serious overhaul (I submit to you the State of Florida, if for no other reason).

My issue at present is that it is not an extraordinary request to have someone identify themselves for something as serious as voting. Just like the Republicans are doing by wiping away an obvious incentive when it suits them, I see Democrats doing it with suppressing voter identification... because there is an obvious incentive.

Oh, and howdy, Hyro. It's been a long time since we've chatted!

It's been years, Chiro! *raises a glass in a toast*


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2322 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2018 9:44 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2342 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2018 6:08 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 2337 of 2663 (837531)
08-04-2018 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2334 by Hyroglyphx
08-04-2018 3:32 PM


say what?
Hyroglyphx writes:

In most states, a requirement to obtain a driver's license is proof of citizenship.

I have lived and had drivers licenses in Maryland, North Carolina, Georgia, Arizona, South Carolina, California, Texas and maybe some states I forgot and NEVER have had to produce proof of citizenship for a drivers license, voting, residency, schools or any other function. In fact I have never been asked to provide proof of citizenship for any function, license or registration.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2334 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-04-2018 3:32 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2338 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2018 5:20 PM jar has not yet responded
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 2338 of 2663 (837532)
08-04-2018 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2337 by jar
08-04-2018 4:00 PM


Re: say what?
All states require its permanent residents to obtain a driver's license in that state if they plan on driving. Since that includes resident aliens, it is obvious that you don't need to show proof of citizenship to get a driver's license.

On the other hand, the allowed primary identification I needed to show to apply for my state ID was on a list that included things like a state birth certificate, a valid passport, a green card, and a few others, all of which would indicate whether I am or am not a citizen.

On the other, other hand, I just looked at my state ID. There is no indication whether I am or am not a citizen, and this ID will suffice to allow me to vote.

Edited by Chiroptera, : Corrected a typo. Thanks, NoNukes.



Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2337 by jar, posted 08-04-2018 4:00 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2339 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 5:25 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2339 of 2663 (837533)
08-04-2018 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2338 by Chiroptera
08-04-2018 5:20 PM


Re: say what?
All states require its permanent residents to obtain a driver's license in that state if they plan on driving. Since that includes resident aliens, it is obvious that you don't need to show proof of residence to get a driver's license.

Did you mean "it is obvious that you don't need proof of citizenship"?

Beyond that permanent residence is not a requirement for voting anyway at least to the extent that it would include college students. College students are allowed to vote without meeting whatever requirements are needed to establish permanent residency. I think some issues are getting confused here, and I am not completely sure how to straighten them out.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2338 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2018 5:20 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2341 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2018 5:51 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2340 of 2663 (837534)
08-04-2018 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2334 by Hyroglyphx
08-04-2018 3:32 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
I'm saying Democrats heavily favor all things revolving around immigrants (legal or otherwise). There is an obvious incentive that you're pretending doesn't exist.

Immigrants cannot vote until they become citizens. The only reason that former immigrants would have an incentive to vote for Democrats would relate to their treatment by Republicans. Cubans, for example, tend to vote for Republicans, yet I don't note any move by Democrats to attack their voting rights.

Let's be real about what is going on. Why would a bunch of Catholic immigrants support Democrats? Whose fault is that anyway? And what about groups of immigrants that support Republicans?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2334 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-04-2018 3:32 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
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