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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Percy
Member
Posts: 17984
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 2356 of 2666 (837562)
08-05-2018 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2352 by marc9000
08-05-2018 4:50 PM


Re: About the value-added of immigrants
marc9000 writes:

Central and South American immigrants, or European and Asian? It would be important to distinguish between the two, when we're focusing on our southern border security.

Well aren't you the little racist.

Here's a link to the article, answer your own racist questions: America just won the world’s hardest math contest. Again.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2352 by marc9000, posted 08-05-2018 4:50 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2357 by NoNukes, posted 08-05-2018 8:02 PM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2357 of 2666 (837564)
08-05-2018 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2356 by Percy
08-05-2018 7:13 PM


Re: About the value-added of immigrants
[1]
"..."

I think you've jumped the gun a bit. Marc9000's comment is addressed to the observation that a southern wall is directed to folks south of the border.

That said, his comment does demonstrate an amount of ridiculousness that is, in fact, encapsulated by the fact that immigration is primarily about folks overstaying their authorized stay, and not about folks who enter the country illegally. Even if the later is a separate and attackable problem, a southern wall is a boondoggle of an approach that can easily be identified as irrational on a cost vs benefit analysis.

But that won't happen amongst voters whose fears are simply irrational and tribal. Yes, there is some racism involved. Some of it has been on display in these forums. But to date, I am not aware of marc9000 espousing those beliefs. That particular armament (accusation) ought to be drawn slowly because once pointed it is difficult to reholster.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2356 by Percy, posted 08-05-2018 7:13 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2358 by Percy, posted 08-05-2018 8:41 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17984
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 2358 of 2666 (837565)
08-05-2018 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2357 by NoNukes
08-05-2018 8:02 PM


Re: About the value-added of immigrants
NoNukes writes:

Percy writes:

marc9000 writes:

Central and South American immigrants, or European and Asian? It would be important to distinguish between the two, when we're focusing on our southern border security.

Well aren't you the little racist.

I think you've jumped the gun a bit. Marc9000's comment is addressed to the observation that a southern wall is directed to folks south of the border.

That said, his comment does demonstrate an amount of ridiculousness that is, in fact, encapsulated by the fact that immigration is primarily about folks overstaying their authorized stay, and not about folks who enter the country illegally.

I'm trying to see your point, but I can't get past the obvious interpretation. The connection he drew to southern border security made sense to neither of us, so ignoring that, how is caring about the racial origin of kids exhibiting exceptionalism not racist? Is it your view that he was talking geographically, not racially? If so then he forgot a couple continents.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2357 by NoNukes, posted 08-05-2018 8:02 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2359 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2018 2:46 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2359 of 2666 (837572)
08-06-2018 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 2358 by Percy
08-05-2018 8:41 PM


Re: About the value-added of immigrants
Is it your view that he was talking geographically, not racially? If so then he forgot a couple continents.

No, he did not give an exhaustive list of continents, which does leave the door open to interpreting his comments as racist. I personally prefer to have a bit more explicit evidence before using the "r" word, but that is, of course, my own preference. There is plenty wrong with 9k's thinking.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2358 by Percy, posted 08-05-2018 8:41 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17984
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 2360 of 2666 (837579)
08-06-2018 11:57 AM


The Trump Tower Meeting
I still feel the same way about how much wrong doing was committed by the Trump Tower meeting as I did back in February, and I think the papers are missing aspects of this, so here I make my case again.

We all know that in June of 2016 during the presidential primaries Donald Jr., Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner met with representatives of the Russian government for purposes of opposition research. When information about the meeting leaked a year later in July of 2017 Donald Jr. lied about it. Then Trump lied about it. The stories kept changing from (paraphrasing) "it was about adoptions" to "it was about getting dirt of Hillary" to "it wasn't collusion" to "collusion is not a crime."

A timeline with details can be found at The White House's story on the Trump Tower meeting shifts — yet again.

Here are the FEC (Federal Election Commission) regulations that prohibit foreign nationals from providing any value to American political campaigns. This is from the Cornell Law Library (52 U.S. Code § 30121 - Contributions and donations by foreign nationals):

quote:
(a) Prohibition It shall be unlawful for—

(1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make—
(A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;
...
...
(2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.

Does it matter if no information actually changed hands? From what I understand of conspiracy, success doesn't matter, but most people forget that information *did* change hands. This is from Trump campaign–Russian meetings:

quote:
On July 14, Akhmetshin stated in an interview that Veselnitskaya had claimed to have evidence of "violations of Russian law by a Democratic donor", and added that she "described her findings at the meeting and left a document about them with Trump Jr. and the others."

The document that passed from the Russians to Donald Jr. represents an "other thing of value" that I highlighted in the excerpt from the legal statute above. A crime was committed at that meeting, which represents a conspiracy.

But it gets worse (much worse, actually). By derivative liability the Trump campaign becomes connected to the whole Russian conspiracy, including the hacked emails and manipulation of social media.

As I said back in February, just what is publicly known places Trump and his associates in scalding hot water, and even worse, Mueller undoubtedly knows much more than we do. And then there's the obstruction, which just becomes more and more overt and blatant every day.

Will Trump finish out his term? It depends on the fall elections and the Mueller report. If the Democrats sweep the House and Senate and if the Mueller report is sufficiently damning then I doubt the Democrats will be able to resist impeachment, but it seems a pointless exercise since a 2/3 majority in the Senate is required to convict. The Mueller report would have to be awfully bad to get that many Republican impeachment votes.

But even if impeachment could be successful, by the time the whole process ended there would only be a year of Trump's term left. Would it be worth it? Wouldn't it be better to run against a neutered Trump than Pence?

Suggested slogan for the Democratic candidate, idea comes from the Harding campaign: "Back to Sanity"

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 2367 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2018 4:57 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1558
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 2361 of 2666 (837580)
08-06-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2350 by Percy
08-05-2018 1:29 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
In most states, a requirement to obtain a driver's license is proof of citizenship.

You didn't say driver's license, you just said ID. If you're talking about driver's licenses then I guess it is possible proof of citizenship - it depends on when and where the person obtained their first license. Where I lived when I got my first license they didn't ask for a birth certificate. Each time I moved to another state I only had to show my old driver's license and provide proof of residency.

I don't think a driver's licence is ever proof of citizenship in the US, since as far as I can see none of them mention whether you're a US citizen.

I think there's some confusion going on between citizenship and residency. Hyroglyphyx mentioned that there are separate licences for temporary residents; but something like 4% of the US population are legal permanent residents but not US citizens. They do not have the right to vote in the US, but they have the same driver's licence as everybody else. For this reason proof of citizenship is self-evidently not a requirement to obtain a driver's licence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2350 by Percy, posted 08-05-2018 1:29 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2364 by Percy, posted 08-06-2018 2:04 PM caffeine has responded
 Message 2365 by Chiroptera, posted 08-06-2018 2:48 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 2362 of 2666 (837581)
08-06-2018 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2354 by marc9000
08-05-2018 4:57 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
marc9000 writes:

Yes! Free stuff for themselves.


To some extent, the role of government is to provide "stuff" for the people, whether in the form of goods or services. The problem we have is that some people are paying their fair share of taxes and not getting their fair share of stuff in return. Now you want to compound the problem by depriving them of the right to representation?

marc9000 writes:

Can't find "fair treatment" in the Constitution for anyone, including illegals of course. Where do you find it?


Ever hear of the Bill of Rights?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2354 by marc9000, posted 08-05-2018 4:57 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2363 by Chiroptera, posted 08-06-2018 12:36 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.3


(2)
Message 2363 of 2666 (837584)
08-06-2018 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2362 by ringo
08-06-2018 12:18 PM


The 14th Amendment
Even more appropriate:

...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I have to admit, though, that I am surprised that conservatives concede that they're against "fair treatment". I was raised to think that it's just basic decency, that you just do it without thinking.



Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2362 by ringo, posted 08-06-2018 12:18 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17984
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 2364 of 2666 (837587)
08-06-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2361 by caffeine
08-06-2018 11:58 AM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
caffeine writes:

I think there's some confusion going on between citizenship and residency. Hyroglyphx mentioned that there are separate licences for temporary residents; but something like 4% of the US population are legal permanent residents but not US citizens.

About the confusion, Hyroglyphx has used the terms "ID" and "drivers license" inconsistently. There were at least several times where I felt he was saying one but meant the other. And he never mentioned permanent residents, so there's no way to know if there's more confusion there, though Jar lives in Texas, maybe he knows something.

They do not have the right to vote in the US, but they have the same driver's license as everybody else.

I actually looked this up for Texas (his state) and New Hampshire (my state). For Texas licenses the images I found online do seem to indicate whether the holder is a non-citizen. New Hampshire licenses do not (I found a non-citizen to show me one), so New Hampshire licenses cannot serve as proof of citizenship.

But I should mention something about the expiration date on NH licenses. For citizens and for permanent residents it is their birthdate, but for all other non-citizens it is their visa expiration date. If a visa holder's birthday is known it could be checked against his license expiration date, and if it didn't match then therefore they are not a citizen.

Just to bore you with a little more explanation, while permanent residency status is permanent, the green card has to be renewed every ten years. The New Hampshire driver's license renewal period is five years, which might be why it isn't tied to the ten year green card period.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2361 by caffeine, posted 08-06-2018 11:58 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2372 by caffeine, posted 08-07-2018 11:23 AM Percy has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 2365 of 2666 (837591)
08-06-2018 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2361 by caffeine
08-06-2018 11:58 AM


Driver's licenses
As Percy mentioned, some states do indicate citizenship on their driver's licenses. My non-driver's license state ID card does not. So in some (most?) states, a driver's license is not proof of citizenship, but in others it is.

Some states allow undocumented aliens to obtain driver's licenses, figuring an illegal alien who needs the job is going to be driving anyway, so it's better to certify that they know the traffic laws and can operate a vehicle.

However, my understanding that the new REAL compliant IDs are proof of legal residency; if a state issues licenses to undocumented aliens, they'll have to make those licenses distinguishable from the REAL compliant IDs.

Edited by Chiroptera, : Awkward sentence.



Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2361 by caffeine, posted 08-06-2018 11:58 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2366 of 2666 (837609)
08-06-2018 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2337 by jar
08-04-2018 4:00 PM


Re: say what?
I forgot and NEVER have had to produce proof of citizenship for a drivers license, voting, residency, schools or any other function.

Does RealID change that? To get the regular ID, I don't have to do show citizenship either. But I do recall that the very first time I got a learner's permit, that I did have to bring my birth certificate. So I think my citizenship is not an issue anymore.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2337 by jar, posted 08-04-2018 4:00 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2368 by Chiroptera, posted 08-06-2018 5:06 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2367 of 2666 (837612)
08-06-2018 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2360 by Percy
08-06-2018 11:57 AM


Re: The Trump Tower Meeting
The document that passed from the Russians to Donald Jr. represents an "other thing of value" that I highlighted in the excerpt from the legal statute above. A crime was committed at that meeting, which represents a conspiracy.

This, in my opinion, is the weak point of your argument. I don't think this particular element is a slam dunk, and in fact, I believe it is a legally losing argument.

But either way, I stand by my original statement about this meeting. No patriotic American would have been at that meeting unless he was wearing an FBI wire. If Trump Jr. et al. were not involved in espionage, it is pretty clear that the Russians at the meeting were engaged in exactly that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2360 by Percy, posted 08-06-2018 11:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 2368 of 2666 (837614)
08-06-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2366 by NoNukes
08-06-2018 4:43 PM


Re: say what?
Homeland Security website[/url]

The REAL ID act requires the following:

(B) EVIDENCE OF LAWFUL STATUS- A State shall require, before
issuing a driver's license or identification card to a person, valid
documentary evidence that the person--
(i) is a citizen or national of the United States;
(ii) is an alien lawfully admitted for permanent or
temporary residence in the United States;
(iii) has conditional permanent resident status in the
United States;
(iv) has an approved application for asylum in the United
States or has entered into the United States in refugee
status;
(v) has a valid, unexpired nonimmigrant visa or
nonimmigrant visa status for entry into the United States;
(vi) has a pending application for asylum in the United
States;
(vii) has a pending or approved application for temporary
protected status in the United States;
(viii) has approved deferred action status; or
(ix) has a pending application
for adjustment of status to
that of an alien lawfully ad
mitted for permanent residence
in the United States or conditional permanent resident
status in the United States.

So a first time applicant for any kind of ID will need to provide a birth certificate, a certificate of naturalization, a green card, or some sort of documentation relating to the other categories on this list.

Once someone has a REAL compliant ID, I would imagine that that will be sufficient for any other REAL compliant ID (except for whatever other documentation, such as proof of address, a state may require for its own purposes).



Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2366 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2018 4:43 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7630
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


(4)
Message 2369 of 2666 (837618)
08-06-2018 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2314 by Hyroglyphx
08-03-2018 5:20 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
Hyroglyphx writes:

Agreed. It's not the illegal immigrants that's the problem, it's the people [let's be honest, Democrats] who use it as a tactic to gain more votes than is allowable.

"The Brennan Center’s seminal report on this issue, The Truth About Voter Fraud, found that most reported incidents of voter fraud are actually traceable to other sources, such as clerical errors or bad data matching practices. The report reviewed elections that had been meticulously studied for voter fraud, and found incident rates between 0.0003 percent and 0.0025 percent. Given this tiny incident rate for voter impersonation fraud, it is more likely, the report noted, that an American “will be struck by lightning than that he will impersonate another voter at the polls.”"
https://www.brennancenter.org/.../debunking-voter-fraud-myth

How is that a problem?

Yeah, we've heard that nonsense before... that it affects poor people, that it affects blacks, it affects immigrants, etc... There is nothing factual about that at all.

The US Supreme Court concluded just the opposite of what you did:

"In May of last year the Supreme Court upheld a lower court’s ruling that struck down the North Carolina’s voter ID law as an unconstitutional effort to “target African-Americans with almost surgical precision.”"
https://www.newsobserver.com/.../op-ed/article214681510.html


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2314 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-03-2018 5:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17984
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 2370 of 2666 (837643)
08-07-2018 9:04 AM


Is another massacre looming?
Trump is becoming increasingly frenzied and volatile in his Tweets and at his rallies, and he seems very upset at the possibility that his son Donald Jr. may have some serious legal exposure. Mueller's job seems increasingly vulnerable.

Starting in the early 1970's William D. Ruckelshaus served in posts like EPA administrator, acting director of the FBI, and deputy attorney general. He has an editorial in today's Washington Post:

Only one other president has ever acted this desperate

Anyone want to guess who he's talking about before I give it away? Is there even anyone who doesn't already know?

Ruckelshaus was one of the players in what has become known as the Saturday Night Massacre when Nixon ordered Attorney General Elliot Richardson to fire Watergate prosecutor Archibald Cox. Richardson refused and resigned. Nixon gave the same order to Deputy Attorney General Ruckelshaus who also refused and resigned. Solicitor General Robert Bork (later a failed Supreme Court justice nominee under Reagan) did the job.

If Trump orders Mueller fired will anyone stand up to him? Attorney General Jeff Sessions and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein seem to stand up to him a fair bit. If Trump orders Mueller fired then Jeff Sessions dodges a bullet since he recused himself, but I can see Rosenstein resigning rather than carry out the order. The job would then fall to Solicitor General Noel Francisco who seems like a nice guy but with not a lot of backbone, so he will probably be the guy to Bork Mueller should it come to that. If Francisco does refuse then the line of succession goes like this, I'll start at the top with Sessions just so the list is complete, even though Sessions doesn't factor in:

  • Attorney General Jeff Sessions
  • Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein
  • Solicitor General Noel Francisco
  • Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel Steven Engel
  • Assistant Attorney General for National Security John Demers
  • US Attorney for the Eastern District of North Carolina Robert Higdon
  • US Attorney for the Northern District of Texas Erin Nealy Cox

Like I said, should Trump order Mueller's firing I'm betting Francisco does the job. If by some chance he does not I can't imagine any of those lower on the list refusing.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 2371 by Chiroptera, posted 08-07-2018 9:20 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
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