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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2431 of 2610 (838322)
08-19-2018 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 2429 by NoNukes
08-18-2018 6:34 PM


Re: The Omarosa Thing
NoNukes writes:

re you referring to Zaid's remark in the headline or to his comments in the article? You didn't quote anything, so I can't tell what you're referring to.

I did not quote anything because you did not quote anything other than his conclusion. The idea that an NDA is only constitutional when applied to national security is ridiculous.

You seem ticked off. Are you ticked off about something, or are you just perpetually ticked off. You certainly aren't very informative. Perhaps you could grace us with an explanation for why it's "ridiculous" or, as you said earlier "wishful thinking". Meanwhile, here's a few more quotes for you to ponder:

  • Mark S. Zaid (lawyer representing federal employees about national security): "As a government employee she is entitled to First Amendment protection, and no NDA can overcome it other than for classified information."

  • Harry Litman (former federal prosecutor): "...the NDA will be struck down as overbroad. There are legitimate reasons to preserve the confidentiality of some White House communications — e.g., about national security — but this is designed to sweep in almost all communications for all time...the problem is that the White House staff has First Amendment rights, and even more importantly that the public has a right to know about much of the day-to-day workings of the executive branch. Neither Trump nor any other president can just shield everything from public scrutiny."

  • Lawrence Tribe (constitutional scholar): "It’s idiotic if its purpose is to prevail in the arbitration. It’s not necessarily idiotic if its only purpose is to continue deflecting attention from vastly more serious issues — like what Trump and Putin said to one another during that two-hour meeting in Helsinki, or which version of [Rudolph W.] Giuliani’s defense of Trump’s conversation with [former FBI director James] Comey about going easy on [Michael] Flynn the president wants us to accept."

  • Ian Bassin (heads Protect Democracy): "It’s not just a matter of law (though government does restrict disclosure of some confidential or classified information, these NDAs go far beyond those rules); it’s about principle, and what these NDAs signify about the president’s view of government work. At root, it has become clear that Trump doesn’t view public office as a public trust, but rather as a personal fiefdom, to be controlled by whomever is declared the winner of an election.
    ...
    "...aside from imposing an outrageous lifetime blanket omerta on public servants, purports to be enforceable (it’s not) by Trump personally as a private citizen after leaving office. I was asked on occasion when I served in the White House Counsel’s Office if staff should be required to sign NDAs. My response always contained some version of this: We work for the public. If Trump can’t see that, Congress and his lawyers should remind him."

  • Mark Fenster (law professor at University of Florida): "You could understand how someone like Donald Trump, who had never been in government … would come into government and want to do this. But it’s just not going to happen."

  • Frank Fagan: "Much of the campaign NDA is probably enforceable. But the First Amendment also comes into play...That body of First Amendment law potentially renders the White House NDAs — as opposed to the campaign NDAs — irrelevant. "

  • Adam White (law professor at George Mason University): "The White House Counsel shouldn’t be in the business of writing unenforceable contracts for political reasons."

  • National Labor Relations Board: Recently held that non-disparagement clauses unlawfully conflict with the rights of all workers — not only unionized workers — to engage in concerted activity on the terms and conditions of their employment.

  • Heidi Kitrosser (law professsor at University of Minnesota): "These NDAs strike me as clearly unconstitutional under the First Amendment...A public employee can’t be forced to sign away the right to speak."
  • D.C. Circuit Court: "The government has no legitimate interest in censoring unclassified materials...[the employment agreement] does not extend to unclassified materials or to information obtained from public sources. The government may not censor such material, ‘contractually or otherwise.’"

Should I have included you on the list, something like this:

  • NoNukes (patent attorney?): "[The above is] wishful thinking...ridiculous"

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2429 by NoNukes, posted 08-18-2018 6:34 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2446 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2018 1:12 PM Percy has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6528
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2432 of 2610 (838325)
08-19-2018 10:55 AM


The game of thrones continues
This morning's New York Times:

White House Counsel, Don McGahn, Has Cooperated Extensively in Mueller Inquiry

Don McGahn is the White House counsel. It turns out that he has been cooperating extensively with Mueller's investigation over the obstruction of justice charges.

The White House counsel, Donald F. McGahn II, has cooperated extensively in the special counsel investigation, sharing detailed accounts about the episodes at the heart of the inquiry into whether President Trump obstructed justice, including some that investigators would not have learned of otherwise, according to a dozen current and former White House officials and others briefed on the matter.

It turns out that McGahn is a pretty valuable witness.

To investigators, Mr. McGahn was a fruitful witness, people familiar with the investigation said. He had been directly involved in nearly every episode they are scrutinizing to determine whether the president obstructed justice. To make an obstruction case, prosecutors who lack a piece of slam-dunk evidence generally point to a range of actions that prove that the suspect tried to interfere with the inquiry.

Why would the White House counsel cooperate with the special investigator? Because Trump told him to!

Mr. McGahn’s cooperation began in part as a result of a decision by Mr. Trump’s first team of criminal lawyers to collaborate fully with Mr. Mueller. The president’s lawyers have explained that they believed their client had nothing to hide and that they could bring the investigation to an end quickly.

Uh huh.

But why would McGahn be so accommodating to Mueller's team? Ha ha ha! Because this is the Trump Administration! McGahn felt that he was being set up.

Mr. McGahn and his lawyer, William A. Burck, could not understand why Mr. Trump was so willing to allow Mr. McGahn to speak freely to the special counsel and feared Mr. Trump was setting up Mr. McGahn to take the blame for any possible illegal acts of obstruction, according to people close to him. So he and Mr. Burck devised their own strategy to do as much as possible to cooperate with Mr. Mueller to demonstrate that Mr. McGahn did nothing wrong.

So far it isn't yet perfectly clear whether Trump or his minions have broken any actual laws, but

Even if the president did nothing wrong, Mr. Burck told White House lawyers, the White House has to understand that a client like Mr. Trump probably made politically damaging statements to Mr. McGahn as he weighed whether to intervene in the Russia investigation.

Oh, and be careful in your judgement of McGahn. He was originally hired by Trump after all, so he's definitely not one of the "good guys".

Mr. McGahn has overseen two of Mr. Trump’s signature accomplishments — stocking the federal courts and cutting government regulations — and become a champion of conservatives in the process....

Mr. McGahn is still the White House counsel, shepherding the president’s second Supreme Court nominee, Brett M. Kavanaugh, through the confirmation process.

Edited by Chiroptera, : Added quote about the value of McGahn's cooperation


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

Replies to this message:
 Message 2433 by Phat, posted 08-19-2018 12:12 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 2433 of 2610 (838327)
08-19-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2432 by Chiroptera
08-19-2018 10:55 AM


Re: The game of thrones continues
Check out Jon Josts Web Blog take on the status quo of Trump in context.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2432 by Chiroptera, posted 08-19-2018 10:55 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2434 by Chiroptera, posted 08-19-2018 2:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6528
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 2434 of 2610 (838330)
08-19-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2433 by Phat
08-19-2018 12:12 PM


Re: The game of thrones continues
When he goes into the "both parties are equally corrupt" or "both sides are equally bad" I kind of have trouble taking him seriously.

Entertaining in parts, though. Kind of reads like the poor man's Matt Taibbi.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2433 by Phat, posted 08-19-2018 12:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2435 of 2610 (838339)
08-19-2018 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2426 by Percy
08-18-2018 12:40 PM


Re: Michael Avenatti is Coming to New Hampshire
I have just returned from the Hillsborough County Democratic Summer Picnic. Before Michael Avenatti spoke I shook his hand and spoke a few brief words to him. A national paper overheard me and asked me a couple brief questions. His speech was inspiring, which I video'd from about 15 feet away. I'll post it if I can figure out how to get it off my phone, up to the website, and embedded in a message.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2426 by Percy, posted 08-18-2018 12:40 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2436 by Phat, posted 08-22-2018 9:20 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 2438 by Percy, posted 08-22-2018 11:41 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 2440 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2018 11:24 AM Percy has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 2436 of 2610 (838460)
08-22-2018 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2435 by Percy
08-19-2018 4:46 PM


Guilty As Charged
It was a big day in politics. Guilty: 6 Takeaways From Manafort's And Cohen's Big Day

NPR reports that the two court decisions on Tuesday(yesterday) will have big implications for President Trump.

From the article: Six points are made.
1. This was a remarkable and potentially consequential day in the Trump presidency

2. It proves the danger of the Mueller investigation for Trump

3. Clear, incontrovertible evidence is the key to proving anything and winning public opinion

4. Is there another shoe to drop soon?(September 7th at the latest...60 days from Election Day.)

5. This adds to the Democrats' scandal push

6. Trump says he hits back harder, so what will he do?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2435 by Percy, posted 08-19-2018 4:46 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 2437 by jar, posted 08-22-2018 9:56 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 2437 of 2610 (838463)
08-22-2018 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 2436 by Phat
08-22-2018 9:20 AM


Re: Guilty As Charged
Phat writes:

Trump says he hits back harder, so what will he do?

Historically what he has done is throw anyone else under the bus; he will shout "Yes they are guilty and should be drawn & quartered for taking advantage of me and committing all those sins"

What he has never done historically is declare "Mea Culpa".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2436 by Phat, posted 08-22-2018 9:20 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2439 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2018 11:23 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 2438 of 2610 (838465)
08-22-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 2435 by Percy
08-19-2018 4:46 PM


Re: Michael Avenatti is Coming to New Hampshire
Here's the video I took of Michael Avenatti speaking at the Hillsborough County Democratic Summer Picnic:


Here's a YouTube video of the speech made by one of the local news outlets. They had a big camera and a tripod, but mine is better:

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2435 by Percy, posted 08-19-2018 4:46 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 2439 of 2610 (838522)
08-23-2018 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2437 by jar
08-22-2018 9:56 AM


Re: Guilty As Charged
Historically what he has done is throw anyone else under the bus; he will shout "Yes they are guilty and should be drawn & quartered for taking advantage of me and committing all those sins"

Trump's response has been far worse than I anticipated. He is taking that stance that Manafort is a good dude because he did not snitch on Trump, and that Cohen is a no good tell-all, rat. As far as I am concern, Trump has essentially admitted guilt with that response.

How does Trump try to avoid responsibility?
1. By claiming that the activity that Cohen has confessed to and has been convicted for is actually not a crime.

2. By lying that he did not know about the payoffs during the campaign, despite the fact that he was recorded discussing the payoffs in September leading up to the election.

3. By saying that the payoff was not campaign money. That is actually an admission of guilt because it was a reimbursing for money that Cohen paid out of his own pocket to protect the campaign, non of which was reported, and all of which was way over the campaign limits even if it was reported. Trump is actually admitting to being an accessory to a crime.

4. By pointing to Obama's campaign finance fines. Please note that Obama was late reporting legal donations and was fined for late reporting. Trump and Cohen apparently failed to report illegal campaign contributions and then lied about them.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2437 by jar, posted 08-22-2018 9:56 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2441 by Stile, posted 08-23-2018 11:56 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2440 of 2610 (838523)
08-23-2018 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 2435 by Percy
08-19-2018 4:46 PM


Re: Michael Avenatti is Coming to New Hampshire
Maybe post it to youtube and then link to it?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2435 by Percy, posted 08-19-2018 4:46 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2447 by Percy, posted 08-23-2018 1:30 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3257
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 2441 of 2610 (838526)
08-23-2018 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 2439 by NoNukes
08-23-2018 11:23 AM


Re: Guilty As Charged
So are you implying that there are pretty much 2 options:

There will be some crazy-impeachment-thing at some point, Trump will cease being president and get taken to court.

Or

Trump will last out the rest of his term, but as soon as he "naturally" ceases to be president... then he'll get taken to court.

I suppose I'm asking, in your law-experienced-view, is there any way Trump could end up not being taken to court?

I mean, I'm sure there's always "a way" in the sense that no one can read the future and super-surprising things happen every now and then... but I'm just asking in the realistic sort of sense based on the information available to us today.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2439 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2018 11:23 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2442 by jar, posted 08-23-2018 12:05 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply
 Message 2444 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2018 12:29 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply
 Message 2445 by PaulK, posted 08-23-2018 12:42 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 2442 of 2610 (838529)
08-23-2018 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2441 by Stile
08-23-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Guilty As Charged
Stile writes:

I suppose I'm asking, in your law-experienced-view, is there any way Trump could end up not being taken to court?

Yes, in fact there is a precedent and example.

quote:
As a result of certain acts or omissions occurring before his resignation from the Office of President, Richard Nixon has become liable to possible indictment and trial for offenses against the United States. Whether or not he shall be so prosecuted depends on findings of the appropriate grand jury and on the discretion of the authorized prosecutor. Should an indictment ensue, the accused shall then be entitled to a fair trial by an impartial jury, as guaranteed to every individual by the Constitution.

It is believed that a trial of Richard Nixon, if it became necessary, could not fairly begin until a year or more has elapsed. In the meantime, the tranquility to which this nation has been restored by the events of recent weeks could be irreparably lost by the prospects of bringing to trial a former President of the United States. The prospects of such trial will cause prolonged and divisive debate over the propriety of exposing to further punishment and degradation a man who has already paid the unprecedented penalty of relinquishing the highest elective office of the United States.

Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974.



My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2441 by Stile, posted 08-23-2018 11:56 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 2443 of 2610 (838530)
08-23-2018 12:08 PM


The trick is to get rid of Pence first. That way you have a chance of getting somebody halfway decent like Gerry Ford in the Oval Office.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 2444 of 2610 (838533)
08-23-2018 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2441 by Stile
08-23-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Guilty As Charged
There will be some crazy-impeachment-thing at some point, Trump will cease being president and get taken to court.

I don't believe that Trump will be convicted if he is impeached. Democrats might be advised not to bother with impeachment. Trump is currently being sued in civil court, and is likely to face state charges at least in New York once he does leave office.

I don't see any way that Trump avoids criminal charges forever.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2441 by Stile, posted 08-23-2018 11:56 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14488
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 2445 of 2610 (838535)
08-23-2018 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 2441 by Stile
08-23-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Guilty As Charged
Julius Caesar took control of Rome and ended the Republic to avoid prosecution. Just sayin’
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2441 by Stile, posted 08-23-2018 11:56 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
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