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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Percy
Member
Posts: 15673
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(5)
Message 676 of 1109 (803513)
04-01-2017 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 675 by marc9000
03-31-2017 11:01 PM


Re: Reality
marc9000 writes:

"Not going to die" ?? I assume this must be a reference to the continuation of Obamacare. The U.S. got along well enough before the passing of Obamacare, and it will when it's over. People "died" in the U.S. in 1817, in 1917, and they still do in 2017. Not only from old age, but from society coming up short on coming to their rescue when they can't provide their own medical care. They do in every country all over the world.

Most first world countries already provide universal healthcare. The US is an outlier.

He's only been in office 10 weeks. It's a recurring problem throughout this thread - Trump is getting put down for not fulfilling in 2 months every promise he made during his campaign. No president in the past has done any better.

You misunderstand the criticism. The criticism is not that Trump failed to come up with a plan in less than two months. The criticism is that he lied during the campaign when he said he already had a better and cheaper health care plan. Turns out he had no plan and they had to cobble one together at the last minute.

One wonders when the Trump supporters will finally learn that braggadocio is just the way Trump talks. Everything he says is better and bigger and more wonderful. It's always a nice fairy tale, but it's rarely the truth.

The Republicans may have this silly rule that no bill will come before the House unless a majority of Republicans support it, but the Democrats don't.

They don't?

It's way too early to tell whether the Democrats have the same silly rule, since no significant legislation has actually come to a vote. We'll probably get our first indication with the Gorsuch vote - we'll see if any Democrats vote in favor. It would be nice if we could begin to see more reaching across the aisle.

Except it is. Let us not play dumb and pretend that the Constitution is a laundry list.

Enumerated powers is the actual term, one of us is playing dumb, and it's not me.

Hint: What do the words "general welfare" mean to you?

Since I have a middle school history education, they mean to me exactly what they meant to the most prominent of the U.S. founders. What do Federalist Papers 41 and 45 mean to you?

The last enumerated power is very inclusive:

quote:
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Combined with the "General Welfare" clause this casts a fairly wide net. You go on to discuss the clause as originally interpreted, but its interpretation has grown increasingly expansive over time, most notably about 80 years ago with the advent of social security, and later Medicare.

No, I can't. I can't think of a thing that today's Democrats do that doesn't directly or indirectly increase the size and scope of government. You say you can, but you didn't name any. Maybe in your next post?

The significant example that comes to mind is Bill Clinton's reformulation of the welfare laws back in the 1990's.

It's only been 10 weeks for this president. Maybe a better bill, one that reduces government meddling in health care even better, will come along.

A better bill meaning one that doesn't take healthcare away from 24 million Americans over the next decade?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 675 by marc9000, posted 03-31-2017 11:01 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 679 by NoNukes, posted 04-01-2017 11:05 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 680 by marc9000, posted 04-01-2017 11:16 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15673
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 677 of 1109 (803517)
04-01-2017 8:28 AM


Trump Approval Rating
Trump's approval rating is the lowest in modern memory thus far in a presidency (according to the Gallup Poll, so these are apples-to-apples numbers):

What this doesn't show is that Trump has solid approval ratings from his base of supporters, which has barely weakened at all. One wishes for another polling category: I agree with the President politically, but he's a nut-case.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 678 by jar, posted 04-01-2017 8:35 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 681 by marc9000, posted 04-01-2017 11:23 PM Percy has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29182
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 678 of 1109 (803518)
04-01-2017 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 677 by Percy
04-01-2017 8:28 AM


Re: Trump Approval Rating
Percy writes:

I agree with the President politically, but he's a nut-case.

I'm still not sure how anyone can agree with Trump politically when so far I haven't been able to figure out what Trump's political stance is? So far there has been no real political statement from trump that won't fit on a decal; a full bumper sticker not needed.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by Percy, posted 04-01-2017 8:28 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(7)
Message 679 of 1109 (803519)
04-01-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 676 by Percy
04-01-2017 7:17 AM


Re: Reality
Combined with the "General Welfare" clause this casts a fairly wide net. You go on to discuss the clause as originally interpreted, but its interpretation has grown increasingly expansive over time, most notably about 80 years ago with the advent of social security, and later Medicare.

I wouldn't let marc9000 get away with quite so much. He is cherry picking his founders. Hamilton is no less a "prominent" founder than the others. The current interpretation is squarely in the center of the Hamiltonian view. The earlier interpretation was closer to the Madison interpretation. Neither view is some new fangled concoction of liberals. [1]

ABE:

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_welfare_clause
Hamilton's view actually prevailed during the first two presidential administrations (Washington and Adam) before being overtaken by the less expansive view.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by Percy, posted 04-01-2017 7:17 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 682 by marc9000, posted 04-01-2017 11:32 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 680 of 1109 (803541)
04-01-2017 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 676 by Percy
04-01-2017 7:17 AM


Re: Reality
marc9000 writes:

....but from society coming up short on coming to their rescue when they can't provide their own medical care. They do in every country all over the world.

Most first world countries already provide universal healthcare. The US is an outlier.

I know that, but my point was that even countries with universal healthcare still have problems keeping all their patients happy. Non-U.S. posters here seem slow to go into any detail about long waiting periods for procedures that got taken care of right away here even before Obamacare.

You misunderstand the criticism. The criticism is not that Trump failed to come up with a plan in less than two months. The criticism is that he lied during the campaign when he said he already had a better and cheaper health care plan. Turns out he had no plan and they had to cobble one together at the last minute.

I can't defend everything Trump has said, I think he said that he had a plan where "everyone would be covered and it will be wonderful", or something close to that. That's ridiculous, the entire healthcare situation is far too complicated to solve with one plan and make everyone happy. There's no going back to the 50's and 60's, when the U.S. populace really was content with the way healthcare was. Because the government wasn't involved. There was a time when people recognized the proper role of the U.S. government.

One wonders when the Trump supporters will finally learn that braggadocio is just the way Trump talks.

I realized that before I voted for him. I think it's a very small part of how he'll do his job as president.

Everything he says is better and bigger and more wonderful. It's always a nice fairy tale, but it's rarely the truth.

I recall Obama having a similar problem back in 2008 and 2012. Maybe not quite as obvious, largely because is wasn't so shouted from the rooftops by the news media.

It's way too early to tell whether the Democrats have the same silly rule, since no significant legislation has actually come to a vote. We'll probably get our first indication with the Gorsuch vote - we'll see if any Democrats vote in favor. It would be nice if we could begin to see more reaching across the aisle.

The majority leaders not bringing bills from the minority to a vote is something that goes on from both sides, neither side really has room to point fingers about it. Rrhain specifically mentioned the House, but I remember Harry Ried refusing to bring several Republican bills to a vote back when he was the Senate leader.

Gorsuch is as qualified as anyone could be - he would easily be confirmed if anyone but Trump had nominated him. Schumer and his followers are gong to vote against ANYONE Trump nominates.

Combined with the "General Welfare" clause this casts a fairly wide net. You go on to discuss the clause as originally interpreted, but its interpretation has grown increasingly expansive over time, most notably about 80 years ago with the advent of social security, and later Medicare.

I agree, and I admit that some of it can be good, but not much. The founders seemed to draw a clear distinction between government involvement with "external objects", dealing with foreign countries, providing national defense etc. - things that people can't do individually. But 'internal objects', things that people can and should do for themselves, should be left to individuals. It was the reason for the 10th amendment. To briefly touch on that;

quote:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Rrhain told me that today's nuclear weapons aren't mentioned in the Constitution, but they are a logical extension of "To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces". Providing retirement plans and healthcare don't extend from anything in the Constitution, other than the very vague "general welfare" clause.

Considering the wording of the 10th amendment, I don't understand why there aren't more ~issue~ votes. How can the powers be reserved to the people without a more foolproof way of finding out the peoples opinion? I've seen lots of local issue votes on the ballot since 1972 when I first started voting, but I can't remember a single federal one. There wasn't one on the national 55 mph speed limit back then. It was a clear violation of the 10th amendment, and it did lasting damage to this day.

The significant example that comes to mind is Bill Clinton's reformulation of the welfare laws back in the 1990's.

I'll concede that one, but it was unusual for Clinton, and it was 20 years ago. The Democrats have grown more liberal since then.

A better bill meaning one that doesn't take healthcare away from 24 million Americans over the next decade?

"Take healthcare away" is a big talking point of the anti-Trump media. If they do nothing to earn it, if they recently had it handed to them at the expense of others who can't afford to prop them up, and if the mistake is being fixed, there are other ways to describe it than as a "take away". It's one of many problems when government grows too unsustainably fast, properly reigning it in gets described in emotional, not rational ways.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by Percy, posted 04-01-2017 7:17 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 683 by Percy, posted 04-02-2017 8:10 AM marc9000 has responded
 Message 685 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2017 8:49 AM marc9000 has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 681 of 1109 (803542)
04-01-2017 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by Percy
04-01-2017 8:28 AM


Re: Trump Approval Rating
Trump's approval rating is the lowest in modern memory thus far in a presidency (according to the Gallup Poll, so these are apples-to-apples numbers):

Not a surprise, considering all the negative press he gets. The news media's approval ratings aren't anything for them to brag about either. We'll see how the ratings of each progress in the coming months/years.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by Percy, posted 04-01-2017 8:28 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 684 by Percy, posted 04-02-2017 8:34 AM marc9000 has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 682 of 1109 (803543)
04-01-2017 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by NoNukes
04-01-2017 11:05 AM


Re: Reality
I wouldn't let marc9000 get away with quite so much. He is cherry picking his founders. Hamilton is no less a "prominent" founder than the others.

quote:
Historian Richard B. Morris in 1973 identified the following seven figures as the key Founding Fathers: John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...ing_Fathers_of_the_United_States

(this link also shows a list of U.S. founders, numbering well over 100)

He really was prominent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by NoNukes, posted 04-01-2017 11:05 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 686 by Theodoric, posted 04-02-2017 9:40 AM marc9000 has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15673
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(5)
Message 683 of 1109 (803580)
04-02-2017 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 680 by marc9000
04-01-2017 11:16 PM


Re: Reality
marc9000 writes:

I can't defend everything Trump has said,...

It isn't a matter of defending it but believing it. Most Trump claims are pure exaggeration and hyperbole. He doesn't know how to fix healthcare, he doesn't know how to make Mexico pay for the wall, he doesn't know he will reduce corporate taxes, he doesn't understand the legislative process and how to work with Congress, he doesn't know how to staff his administration, he doesn't know how to work with allies or trading partners, he doesn't know how he'll reduce the deficit while lowering taxes and increasing spending on infrastructure, he doesn't know how to make claims based on facts, it goes on and on.

One wonders when the Trump supporters will finally learn that braggadocio is just the way Trump talks.

I realized that before I voted for him.

The real question is since little he says can be trusted (it's mostly just non-specific boasting and "selling glitter") how would anyone know what they were getting when they voted for him. I mean, besides the boasting and preening.

I recall Obama having a similar problem back in 2008 and 2012. Maybe not quite as obvious, largely because is wasn't so shouted from the rooftops by the news media.

I'm not an Obama supporter, but the contrast between Obama and Trump is stark. One is a calm and deliberate statesman, the other almost a raving lunatic. Of course the press has taken notice - how could they ignore the elephant in the room. Each event of the disaster of Trump's first couple months actually happened and was duly reported.

It's one of many problems when government grows too unsustainably fast,...

Here's an interesting Obama factoid: per capita federal spending did not grow under Obama. The federal government spent $11,488 per capita in 2009, Obama's first year, and $11,927 per capita in 2016, Obama's last (source). Adjust for inflation and spending per capita declined. The increase in size of government that people are so worried about didn't happen - there was no call to put a madman in charge.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Delete spurious text.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by marc9000, posted 04-01-2017 11:16 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by Porosity, posted 04-02-2017 3:16 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 691 by marc9000, posted 04-02-2017 8:16 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15673
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 684 of 1109 (803582)
04-02-2017 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 681 by marc9000
04-01-2017 11:23 PM


Re: Trump Approval Rating
marc9000 writes:

Not a surprise, considering all the negative press he gets.

All of it true and caused by his own incompetence. The press didn't force Trump to make absurd claims about inauguration crowd sizes or voting by illegals or wiretapping by the Obama administration. The press didn't force Trump to insult allies and trading partners. The press didn't force Trump to fail to develop a healthcare plan before claiming he had a healthcare plan. Etc., etc. Trump was the force behind all the negative press.

The poll numbers seem an accurate reflection of Trump's performance thus far. Only if and when Trump begins having some successes will his poll numbers rise.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by marc9000, posted 04-01-2017 11:23 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 692 by marc9000, posted 04-02-2017 8:29 PM Percy has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4961
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(5)
Message 685 of 1109 (803586)
04-02-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 680 by marc9000
04-01-2017 11:16 PM


Re: Reality
Marc9000 writes:

Non-U.S. posters here seem slow to go into any detail about long waiting periods for procedures that got taken care of right away here even before Obamacare.

In the UK's NHS, Accidents and Emergencies (A&E) are dealt with immediately. Some other stuff is dealt with within days or weeks. There are targets for various types of operations - the maximum wait time for non-emergency operations is 18 weeks. (Though this target is permanently under severe pressure.)

Of course - and many people feel this is quite wrong - you can buy insurance that gets you out of any waiting if you wish.

The rest of the developed world looks on in amazementat why you guys think it ok to pay massively more for an inefficient and unfair system.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by marc9000, posted 04-01-2017 11:16 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by marc9000, posted 04-02-2017 8:33 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 686 of 1109 (803587)
04-02-2017 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 682 by marc9000
04-01-2017 11:32 PM


Re: Reality
Not sure what your point is. Hamilton is third on the list. What am I missing?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by marc9000, posted 04-01-2017 11:32 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 700 by marc9000, posted 04-03-2017 7:33 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29182
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 687 of 1109 (803593)
04-02-2017 12:58 PM


Trump being sued for inciting violence
Once again il Donald's mouth seems to have gotten his ass in trouble. Now it is another Federal Judge that is taking Trumps comments as justification for allowing another suit to proceed.

quote:
A federal judge in Kentucky is the latest to take Trump at his word when he says something controversial. Judge David J. Hale ruled against efforts by Trump's attorneys to throw out a lawsuit accusing him of inciting violence against protesters at a March 2016 campaign rally in Louisville.

At the rally, Trump repeatedly said “get 'em out of here” before, according to the protesters, they were shoved and punched by his supporters. Trump's attorneys sought to have the case dismissed on free speech grounds, arguing that he didn't intend for his supporters to use force. But Hale noted that speech inciting violence is not protected by the First Amendment and ruled that there is plenty of evidence that the protesters' injuries were a “direct and proximate result” of Trump's words.

“It is plausible that Trump’s direction to ‘get 'em out of here’ advocated the use of force,” Hale wrote. “It was an order, an instruction, a command.”


source

And this was related to one of Trumps less obnoxious, less barbaric speeches. What's more there is a clear pattern to il Donald's dangerous and brutish speeches that can be drawn on for supporting evidence of both intent and direction.

One of the more interesting claims by Trump's lawyers is the following:

quote:
Trump’s lawyers argued that the protesters assumed risk of injury when they decided to attend the rally and the defendants cannot be held liable.

source

Trump must be hiring lawyers from Baylor it seems. Girls raped at a party assumed the risk when they decided to wear short skirts and so the "Brothers" should not be held liable.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 689 by NoNukes, posted 04-02-2017 1:53 PM jar has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 688 of 1109 (803599)
04-02-2017 1:48 PM


Putting America First...
In a new low, Trump's administration manages to draw seemingly valid human rights criticism from Russia:

quote:
"Absurd statements of the Pentagon representatives justifying civil casualties caused by American bombing in Iraq give more information on the operation planning level and the alleged supremacy of the American "smart" bombs," the statement reads.

The Russian ministry's statement references coalition spokesperson Col. Joseph Scrocca's comments from last week, when he told reporters that ""ISIS is smuggling civilians into buildings so we won't see them and trying to bait the coalition to attack."

Scrocca said the coalition had observed the new ISIS tactic on video surveillance, but US officials have not released the footage. The Russian ministry statement questions why the US military is only now revealing ISIS' alleged new tactic -- and asks why the coalition proceeded with the strike despite knowing about it.

"First, what are the motives of the American Command putting the veil of confidentiality and keeping secret the crimes of terrorists from the international community? Second, why (did) the US-led coalition, having this information, make strikes with their 'smart' bombs on buildings with civilians dooming them to a terrible death?"


It appears that the calculation of "acceptable loses" vs "killing terrorists" has changed a bit. There are no claims of any significant killing of terrorists in this attack, and some dubious excuses for why a school was targeted.

signed Ghost of Dronestar.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 689 of 1109 (803602)
04-02-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 687 by jar
04-02-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Trump being sued for inciting violence
Trump’s lawyers argued that the protesters assumed risk of injury when they decided to attend the rally and the defendants cannot be held liable.

I understand that lawyers are supposed to file as many arguments as possible including some that conflict with other arguments. The reason for doing so is to avoid losing the ability to change legal strategies as new facts come to light. Often the initial briefs in the case are filed with sketchy information.

However using arguments that are both spurious, and injurious to the client is certainly a bad idea. This argument among the funnier things I have read this weak. Looks like it was copied from a NASCAR brief defending against a case involving a flaming car landing on some spectators.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 687 by jar, posted 04-02-2017 12:58 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Porosity
Member
Posts: 153
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013
Member Rating: 5.6


(8)
Message 690 of 1109 (803613)
04-02-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 683 by Percy
04-02-2017 8:10 AM


Re: Reality
Can we really blame Trump? He did everything he could to prove he was unqualified to be president.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 683 by Percy, posted 04-02-2017 8:10 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
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