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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 766 of 1205 (806892)
04-28-2017 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 765 by marc9000
04-28-2017 10:13 PM


On the media and the Trump issues.
My biggest beef with the media and this whole Trump thing is how they Trumpet this big "whitelash" story about Trump voters without adequate controls to parse and disambiguate the multi layered details.

The best example is the issue of immigration policy views among the Red States.

Look at exit polls from the states of Georgia and Texas for example.

You will see that something like 80% of voters opposed deportation and infact supported a pathway to citizenship.

(It should be admitted that Trump supporters themselves will promote the false narrative of the immigration policy views of the nation . Faith told me that the exit polls are wrong. I challenge Faith and others to show me where the Texas exit polls are wrong when they can be tested against the actual voting results. The exit polls showed Trump winning the male vote 57% to 37% and loosing female Texans 49% to 47%. The exit polls seemed to match the actual 52% to 43% Trump winning margin so how could the immigration policy views be too far off? )


This message is a reply to:
 Message 765 by marc9000, posted 04-28-2017 10:13 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9926
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 767 of 1205 (807287)
05-02-2017 1:27 AM


Trump's musing about former president Andrew Jackson
During a recent interview Trump suggested that people don't ask the question Why was there a civil war. He then claimed that Jackson, who died in 1845, 16 years before the first state seceded from the union, who was also a slave owner, was a gentle man who was angered about the upcoming war. Trump claims that Jackson, had he come later would have stopped the Civil War.

On what planet could any of Trump's claims be the least bit meaningful.

Trump:

quote:
He was really angry that he saw what was happening with regard to the Civil War," Trump said of Jackson. "He said, 'There's no reason for this.'

quote:
People don't realize, you know, the Civil War, if you think about it, why?" Trump said in an interview with The Washington Examiner that also aired on Sirius XM radio. "People don't ask that question, but why was there the Civil War? Why could that one not have been worked out

Is Trump serious? Is he completely unaware of all that's been said, written, sung about, celebrated, and denigrated about exactly the question he is asking?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


Replies to this message:
 Message 768 by JonF, posted 05-02-2017 9:02 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3962
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 768 of 1205 (807319)
05-02-2017 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 767 by NoNukes
05-02-2017 1:27 AM


Re: Trump's musing about former president Andrew Jackson
I've heard a theory from several sources, which seems to make some sense from his point of view. He was say "Why wasn't there some incredibly talented dealmaker, like me, who would have negotiated the problem away? I sure could have fixed it!".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 767 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2017 1:27 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13125
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 769 of 1205 (807368)
05-02-2017 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 767 by NoNukes
05-02-2017 1:27 AM


Re: Trump's musing about former president Andrew Jackson
And it gets worse. Here is what Trump thinks of the system of checks and balances provided by the U.S. Constitution


“It’s a very rough system,” he said. “It’s an archaic system … It’s really a bad thing for the country.

The Independent

Imagine what the reaction would have been had Obama said that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 767 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2017 1:27 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 770 by Chiroptera, posted 05-02-2017 3:44 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 770 of 1205 (807373)
05-02-2017 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 769 by PaulK
05-02-2017 3:25 PM


And so it shall always be.
Yes, it's an archaic system when they're in charge. But it's "checks and balances" when the other side is in power.

It's called "a constitutional republic" when the courts strike down laws they don't like. It's "judicial activism" when the laws they do like are struck down.

They don't really have any idea what the words they use mean. It all just means "stuff I like" vs "stuff I don't like."


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 769 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2017 3:25 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(3)
Message 771 of 1205 (807376)
05-02-2017 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 765 by marc9000
04-28-2017 10:13 PM


Stuff Marc Made Up
I heard a lot about all the hissing and booing going on when Ivanka was speaking publicly during her overseas visit. As the news media played the video clip a few days ago, I wasn't hearing it, but figured that I just had my volume too low or something. But no, now I find out it was just another U.S. News media lie.

Here are three different videos of the event from three different sources. In all of them the jeering is plainly audible.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/...ump-booed-defends-father-10294767

http://www.politico.com/.../ivanka-trump-booed-berlin-237569

http://www.independent.co.uk/...e-angel-merkel-a7701226.html

After listening again, it now sounds to me like the crowd was murmuring in agreement with what she was saying.

No it does not. And I knew that that wouldn't be true even before I looked at the videos, as she was not addressing an audience of mental patients.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 765 by marc9000, posted 04-28-2017 10:13 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 772 by marc9000, posted 05-02-2017 9:01 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 772 of 1205 (807390)
05-02-2017 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 771 by Dr Adequate
05-02-2017 4:26 PM


Dr. Adequate dances for the news media
In all of them the jeering is plainly audible.

In seconds 6,7, and 8, you're right. About 3 voices, maybe 4. Is that a "crowd"? To an unhinged news media, it must be!

marc9000 writes:

After listening again, it now sounds to me like the crowd was murmuring in agreement with what she was saying.

No it does not.

At the 16 second mark, the "huh huh" sounds to me like another way to say "understatement of the century".

Who knows, maybe it was more than 3 people we heard, it could have been 7 or 8 that the news media implied represent the entire German population.

But back in Message 717, I described other fake news that you haven't addressed yet, so I'll repeat it here to make sure you see it.

quote:
As I mentioned in Message 702, ABC World News Tonight on the evening of 4-3-17 had nothing to say about the political spying on Trump. To it's credit, it did address the issue on 4-4, and again tonight on 4-5, but just in ways to try to downplay it.

But tonight, my local station joined them in progress, about 1 minute into their broadcast. (the local's coverage of severe storms in my area caused the short delay.) As soon as WNT came on, the caption on the bottom of the screen read; ~Trump;"Crossed a Lot of Lines"~. The caption stayed there for over a full minute, while they talked about the chemical attack in Syria. Trump was upset about it, as any U.S. President would have been. He said the Syrian leader "crossed a lot of lines", and that he might change his position on foreign involvement because of it. They didn't seem to be putting him down for it. But they know of course, that their broadcast, in addition to being in home living rooms, is on countless thousands of Television sets at shopping malls, department stores, laundromats, sports bars etc. Places where lots of activity is going on, and chances are the volume is down, or is drowned out by other noise. How many tens of thousands of people walked by those sets, with other things on their minds, and only glanced at the caption; Trump "Crossed a Lot of Lines". Do you think they all perfectly noticed the punctuation? Or were they cleverly mislead? How many people who don't pay much attention to politics just get another slight little Trump slam etched in their minds?


Bob Woodward recently said; "Mr. President, the media is not fake news". Sorry Bob, the evidence is in. I thought you evolutionists liked evidence?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 771 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-02-2017 4:26 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 773 by Phat, posted 05-02-2017 9:50 PM marc9000 has responded
 Message 774 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-02-2017 9:56 PM marc9000 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9764
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 773 of 1205 (807392)
05-02-2017 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 772 by marc9000
05-02-2017 9:01 PM


Re: Dr. Adequate dances for the news media
The media at large may well be more left oriented than center or right politically. In my opinion, they refuse to publish right wing news because they do not want to fall into the trap of giving free publicity.

I don't see that the media is overly biased....I only see that they are leaning more towards the political Left rather than the Right because they are educated, and most educated people are liberals. Most business school graduates are conservatives.

We have shifted politically as a nation and are now concentrating on making money and allies who will help that interest. Globalism is a real fear for many people.

Global Corporate industrialism is being presented as an alternative.

Economics Trumps Politics. (Pun Intended)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 772 by marc9000, posted 05-02-2017 9:01 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 775 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-02-2017 10:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 776 by marc9000, posted 05-03-2017 8:46 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 774 of 1205 (807393)
05-02-2017 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 772 by marc9000
05-02-2017 9:01 PM


Marc Exhibits His Symptoms
In seconds 6,7, and 8, you're right. About 3 voices, maybe 4.

How did you count them?

At the 16 second mark, the "huh huh" sounds to me like another way to say "understatement of the century".

Then you are a deeply strange man.

As I mentioned in Message 702, ABC World News Tonight on the evening of 4-3-17 had nothing to say about the political spying on Trump. To it's credit, it did address the issue on 4-4, and again tonight on 4-5, but just in ways to try to downplay it.

You're referring here to Trump's unsubstantiated accusations against Obama? What do you expect, nightly updates? "And another day has gone by without Trump producing a shred of evidence for his paranoid delusions, so it still looks as though the PotUS is lying or mad or both."

But tonight, my local station joined them in progress, about 1 minute into their broadcast. (the local's coverage of severe storms in my area caused the short delay.) As soon as WNT came on, the caption on the bottom of the screen read; ~Trump;"Crossed a Lot of Lines"~. The caption stayed there for over a full minute, while they talked about the chemical attack in Syria. Trump was upset about it, as any U.S. President would have been. He said the Syrian leader "crossed a lot of lines", and that he might change his position on foreign involvement because of it. They didn't seem to be putting him down for it. But they know of course, that their broadcast, in addition to being in home living rooms, is on countless thousands of Television sets at shopping malls, department stores, laundromats, sports bars etc. Places where lots of activity is going on, and chances are the volume is down, or is drowned out by other noise. How many tens of thousands of people walked by those sets, with other things on their minds, and only glanced at the caption; Trump "Crossed a Lot of Lines". Do you think they all perfectly noticed the punctuation? Or were they cleverly mislead? How many people who don't pay much attention to politics just get another slight little Trump slam etched in their minds?

OMG, Marc. They broadcast the truth, and while doing so they provided an accurate caption, but --- with what devilish cunning! --- they phrased that caption so that it would subliminally influence people in laundromats who misread it and thought it said something else.

How fiendish! Why did Goebbels never think of that?

You great gibbering paranoid loony.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 772 by marc9000, posted 05-02-2017 9:01 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 777 by marc9000, posted 05-03-2017 9:23 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 775 of 1205 (807396)
05-02-2017 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 773 by Phat
05-02-2017 9:50 PM


Media right or left? It might miss the point.
It overlooks the blatant dishonesty that is far more significant than attempting to pin a label.

The situation in Syria is a good example.

We keep hearing that Assad is to blame for the 500,000 deaths in Syria and he is often portrayed as killing 500,000 civilians.

We never hear about how our allies ( like Turkey ) have spent their efforts fighting the Kurds instead of fighting ISIS (a group that has slaughtered almost 100,000 Kurds once our CIA funded "moderate rebels " caused Assad to have to abandon Kurdish parts of Syria in the east so his internationally recognized government could barely defend itself against ISIS and the "moderates " in the west Syrian country ).

Assad is to blame for the situation in east Syria?

And half of the 500,000 deaths are Syrian government troops fighting the brutal civilian murdering ISIS.

As for the 2 chemical weapon incidents (2013 and again in 2017) that killed a few dozen civilians, France just said its greatest proof is something Assad defenders never challenged to start with - the fact that the Assad government produced the chemical weapons initially. The issue is not who produced them, but who used them in a country that has seen a long civil war with the government usually out of control in most of the country (and specifically in the 2 areas where the chemical weapons were used ).

Amazing that the total number of people killed by chemical weapons in Syria is such a small number yet we are supposed to swallow the media propaganda that Assad has waged a chemical weapons war.

2 whole uses in this long bloody civil war?

The Syrian government used them?

Really?

Did I mention that the only stated United States rationale for attacking the Syrian government has been ( for a half decade ) based on whether or not Assad uses chemical weapons!

Can someone say "false flag " !

Now, is our media warmongering "right wing" or moderate or liberal?

It is almost beside the point.

The situation is first and foremost SCARY.

Acknowledging that first things first should take precedent over ideological labeling, then we can attempt to classify the media ideological situation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by Phat, posted 05-02-2017 9:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 776 of 1205 (807549)
05-03-2017 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 773 by Phat
05-02-2017 9:50 PM


Re: Dr. Adequate dances for the news media
The media at large may well be more left oriented than center or right politically. In my opinion, they refuse to publish right wing news because they do not want to fall into the trap of giving free publicity.

There are those who say that's exactly what they did FOR Trump. Their negativity against Trump brought him publicity that he needed. He played them like a fiddle. Maybe they're just now realizing it, and that's why they're veering even more left even now that they're being exposed on it more than ever.

I don't see that the media is overly biased....I only see that they are leaning more towards the political Left rather than the Right because they are educated, and most educated people are liberals. Most business school graduates are conservatives.

That's an easy one Educated people are liberals because they got their education at liberal universities. Liberal universities give them a distorted view of actual history and human nature. Liberal college professors have an easy time showing students ON PAPER how much better socialism is than free markets. It might work on paper, but history shows it doesn't work nearly as well in the real world.

We have shifted politically as a nation and are now concentrating on making money and allies who will help that interest. Globalism is a real fear for many people.

I agree we've shifted politically, but the U.S. has for 75 years or more concentrated on making money. The big recent shift has been so much more of the population demanding more and more routine living expenses be paid by society at large. Today's demand for free health care would have been laughable only 50 years ago.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by Phat, posted 05-02-2017 9:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 780 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-03-2017 10:15 PM marc9000 has responded
 Message 781 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-04-2017 1:07 AM marc9000 has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 777 of 1205 (807550)
05-03-2017 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 774 by Dr Adequate
05-02-2017 9:56 PM


Re: Marc Exhibits His Symptoms
How did you count them?

I listened with my ears. It wasn't that big of a crowd, it was a room with a few dozen people at the most. It was apparently mostly if not all German journalists. No one notable, no big politicians, no recognizable names at all, except for those speakers like Ivanka. And the jeers from a small handful of them made national news. That's probably a first for the U.S. news media.

You're referring here to Trump's unsubstantiated accusations against Obama? What do you expect, nightly updates?

Well, for a long period we got nightly updates about liberal unsubstantiated accusations that Russia somehow saw to it that Trump won the election. Just tonight, we got breathless updates on ABC WORLD NEWS TONIGHT WITH DAVID MUIR, on unsubstantiated accusations that James Comey is now fully responsible for Hillary's loss, resulting in Trump's win. Nightly updates happen free, for liberal propaganda.

OMG, Marc. They broadcast the truth, and while doing so they provided an accurate caption, but --- with what devilish cunning!

That's it exactly, they couldn't be called on a lie. The headline ~Trump; "Crossed a lot of lines"~, was exactly true, in that Trump SAID Assad crossed a lot of lines. The news was that Trump, and most of the civilized world, U.S. liberal politicians included believe it or not, thought that Assad did a terrible thing by using chemical weapons on his own people, very small children included.

I've never taken an involved journalism class, but in high school English class we got some basics on how newspaper columns are supposed to work. We were taught that a news article with a headline and detailed description will be read very thoroughly by some readers, while other readers will only skim the headline and move on. And everything in between. Each sentence, if not each word, will be read progressively less as the article goes on. So the idea is to write it so the headline and the first few sentences are only basically informative, while more and more detail is included deeper and deeper into the article. Last parts of the article should never contradict what the beginning says, it should just re-inforce it.

News reports on television are similar, the detailed talk going on should follow the basics that a caption provides. So the basic story was that Assad gassed his people, and most of the civilized world including Trump, criticized him for it. So we have the headline;

quote:
Trump;"Crossed a lot of lines"

As a non-journalist, let me pull another one out of thin air;

quote:
Assad crossed a lot of lines.

Now let me identify them as I give you a multiple choice question;

A) Trump;"Crossed A Lot Of Lines.

B)Assad Crossed A Lot Of Lines.

Which headline do you believe most accurately portrayed Assad's gassing of his own people? You can choose A, you can choose B, or you can call me names. Or maybe you could get a CROWD of your green dot providers to help you. Oh wait, there wasn't a crowd, there was only 3, about the same "crowd" that hissed and booed and jeered the ugly Ivanka.

I look forward to your thoughtful, honest response.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-02-2017 9:56 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 779 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-03-2017 9:48 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9926
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 778 of 1205 (807551)
05-03-2017 9:37 PM


Tillerson on "Values"
quote:
In advocating for America’s interests abroad, Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said today that American values must be separate from American foreign policy, even as they “guide” it.

“Guiding all our foreign policy actions are our fundamental values -- our values around freedom, human dignity, the way people are treated,” he said. “Those are our values. Those are not our policies, ” Tillerson told State Department employees in a speech today.


What does it meant to have values which are not actual policy? Isn't acting that way what we mean by paying "lip service". Does someone want to take a stab at explaining why this is a good thing?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 779 of 1205 (807552)
05-03-2017 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 777 by marc9000
05-03-2017 9:23 PM


Re: Marc Exhibits His Symptoms
I listened with my ears.

We have established that your ears are not reliable.

Well, for a long period we got nightly updates about liberal unsubstantiated accusations that Russia somehow saw to it that Trump won the election.

We get regular updates because new stuff keeps coming out about it. With Trump's accusations he made something up and then ... absolutely nothing happened. You can't expect the same level of scrutiny --- and since such scrutiny would be about how Trump's a liar, a lunatic, or both, you would hardly welcome it either.

That's it exactly, they couldn't be called on a lie.

Your paranoid delusions continue to be amusing but will not convince normal people.

C'mon, if they wanted to attack Trump there are plenty of ways to do so which would reach people other than semi-illiterates in laundromats. There's no shortage of dirt on him.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 777 by marc9000, posted 05-03-2017 9:23 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 780 of 1205 (807553)
05-03-2017 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 776 by marc9000
05-03-2017 8:46 PM


Re: Dr. Adequate dances for the news media
quote:
the U. S. has for 75 years or more concentrated on making money. The big recent shift has been so much more of the population demanding more and more routine living expenses be paid by society at large. Today's demand for free health care would have been laughable only 50 years ago.

You assume that there are no pro-growth arguments for issues like free daycare, single payer healthcare, and free college.

There was just an academic study that shows that free daycare brings back 7.3 dollars in saved spending in other areas of the government budget and/or brought in revenue for every dollar spent. I will try to find the story.

Single payer healthcare tends to lower the healthcare costs businesses pay and it is a big argument that its proponents make. Vermonters were sick of loosing jobs to Canada due to lower business expenses.

The benefits of free college speaks for itself and New York had it for over 100 years until the 1970s.

Conservative Californian had it till Reagan became Governor ( I have been told this anyway )

Keep K to 12 free and like 90% will agree today as they would have 50 years ago.

TRUMP ISSUE

Trump being attacked is no proof of liberal bias. He is often attacked for being too anti war. Hillary Clinton just attacked him for his heretical willingness to engage in unilateral talks with North Korea. He was attacked for his opposition to overthrowing Assad too.

The media attempted to sink him in the GOP primary and they did so in a way that made the other GOP radicals seem moderate or at least that's the way the media presentation went. The media thought Trump would collapse so they thought they were helping the eventual GOP nominee.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 776 by marc9000, posted 05-03-2017 8:46 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 783 by marc9000, posted 05-04-2017 8:05 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
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