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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1590
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 796 of 1491 (808635)
05-11-2017 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 795 by jar
05-11-2017 6:25 PM


Re: Genuinely delusional
I think you are wrong there and I bet he even uses a fucking pump.

Yeah, you're right, he probably has to.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by jar, posted 05-11-2017 6:25 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3830
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 797 of 1491 (808639)
05-11-2017 8:24 PM


OK, the topics heading into the gutter
Or maybe is already in the gutter.

Shall we try to keep things more serious?

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that©.

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6397
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 798 of 1491 (808700)
05-12-2017 9:42 AM


We all agree!
Trump speaking about Comey, from the New York Times (bolding is mine):

“And in fact, when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said, ‘You know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story,’” Mr. Trump told Lester Holt of NBC News. “It’s an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should have won.”

Edited by Chiroptera, : Typo.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2725
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 799 of 1491 (808708)
05-12-2017 10:07 AM


So we now have 3 firings of people who were directly responsible for investigating Trump: Sally Yate, Preet Bahara James Comey.
The firing of the national security advisor(appointed by Trump), who was lying about ties to Russia. We also have the attorney general (appointed by Trump),who because of lying about conversations with Russia had to recuse himself from investigating Trump's campaign ties to Russia. There is also the matter of a ex-campaign manager who took money "off the books" from a pro Russian Ukrainian political party who is currently being investigated.

Something in the District of Columbia is rotten.

I get the feeling that there is a string being unraveled by the FBI and it is leading all the way to the Oval Office.

If there was no collusion with the Russians from the Trump campaign then the best thing Trump can do is cooperate fully with the investigation and get his name cleared as quickly as possible. Anything other than that smacks of obfuscation and obstructionism.

Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

Replies to this message:
 Message 801 by NoNukes, posted 05-12-2017 3:36 PM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 800 of 1491 (808742)
05-12-2017 1:22 PM


I'm Not a Crook
"And in all of my years of public life, I have never obstructed justice. And I think, too, that I could say that in my years of public life, that I welcome this kind of examination, because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I am not a crook. I have earned everything I have got."--Richard Nixon

Nixon said this about a year before Congress impeached him, with the first charge being obstruction of justice. Hearing Nixon's words coming out of Donald Trump's mouth is beyond spooky.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 810 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-14-2017 11:05 AM Taq has not yet responded
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10071
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 801 of 1491 (808762)
05-12-2017 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by 1.61803
05-12-2017 10:07 AM


So we now have 3 firings of people who were directly responsible for investigating Trump: Sally Yate, Preet Bahara James Comey.

The early word put out by Trump's surrogates was that the Comey firing was based on Comey's handling of the Clinton email scandal. Based on the timing, and Trump's praise for Comey, and on Trump's own statements about a lack of interest in pursuing Clinton, the 'email' excuse made little sense.

Now Trump has admitted that the primary reason behind Comey's firing was the Russia investigation, something that was actually strongly hinted at in Trump's firing letter.

Still, it appears based on Trump's poll numbers, that Trump still has the support of well north of eighty percent of his base. I would estimate that such support would have to drop down into Nixon-Watergate territory (around 50-60 percent) before Republicans would have the sack to take Trump on. In my mind, absent catching a close campaign adviser 'riding dirty', that won't happen.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by 1.61803, posted 05-12-2017 10:07 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1590
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 802 of 1491 (808764)
05-12-2017 5:18 PM


Trump warns Comey
I saw web headlines today that "Trump Threatens Comey" to "Warns Comey" to "Suggests". It appears Trump does not want Comey talking to the press.

Trump suggests there may be ‘tapes’ of his private conversations with former FBI director

quote:
President Trump suggested Friday that there may be “tapes” of his private conversations with FBI Director James B. Comey, whom he fired earlier this week, in what appeared to be an attempt to threaten Comey about “leaking to the press.”

quote:
James Comey better hope that there are no "tapes" of our conversations before he starts leaking to the press!
5:26 AM - 12 May 2017

quote:
Trump's tweet about Comey was likely a reaction to a New York Times report, published Thursday night detailing a one-on-one dinner Trump had with Comey shortly after the inauguration. The report said that Comey has told associates that Trump twice asked Comey during their conversation to pledge his loyalty to him, something the FBI director declined to do.

I also saw that Comey stated he hopes there are tapes.

One thing we know for sure......this show is just getting started.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 803 of 1491 (808765)
05-12-2017 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 793 by vimesey
05-11-2017 4:57 PM


Re: Genuinely delusional
I read that whole interview. Trump explains the benefits that his economic strategy has for helping business. I am concerned what this will all mean for organized labor. Are they going to force us to renegotiate for lower wages in order to keep our unions?

Point being that Trumps policies are actually attempting to turn big business into one huge mega union.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 804 by jar, posted 05-12-2017 7:52 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29628
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 804 of 1491 (808772)
05-12-2017 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 803 by Phat
05-12-2017 5:28 PM


Maybe not so delusional.
quote:
Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce, that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before it spread to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.

quote:
Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.

source


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 805 of 1491 (808785)
05-13-2017 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 804 by jar
05-12-2017 7:52 PM


Trump is essentially a Tea Party President.
After reading what you sourced, I poked around and found This Article On the history of the tea party movement.

The Authoritarians which we have discussed a few years ago here at EvC. The author of my sources is Bob Altemeyer.

Some key points :

quote:
Like the student radicals and hippies who joined forces to demonstrate against the war in Vietnam, the Tea Party is composed of disparate groups united more by what they are against (President Obama and Democrats) then what they are for. The public sees them as ordinary people, and Tea Party organizations insist their members are a cross-section of American adults, a nonpartisan mix of Democrats, Independents, and Republicans. But the Quinnipiac poll found that 74 percent of the Tea Partiers were Republicans or Republican-leaning Independents.

The Authoritarians was written many years ago in the Bush era, but it seems more appropriate for the times that we are now in. The phenomenon of fake news comes to mind.

quote:
The Winston survey dug into what matters to Tea Party members. The most common theme was a conservative economic philosophy. Their top priority, like the rest of the sample, was job creation. But they thought the way to create jobs was mainly to cut taxes on small businesses and increase development of energy resources.

Now that I am putting two and two together, I see that Donald Trump is essentially a tea party president.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by jar, posted 05-12-2017 7:52 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(7)
Message 806 of 1491 (808791)
05-13-2017 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
01-06-2017 9:29 AM


Re: The Trump Wall
Percy writes:

I thought the Trump Wall with Mexico was just campaign rhetoric, but I guess not: House GOP, Trump team hatch border wall plan
The US will pay to build the wall and then bill Mexico later.

Yesterday I was thinking about the symbolism of "the wall" and I thought of how America was isolationist in the years before WW II. The lightbulb went on, and I realized that this whole idea of a wall is a symbolic form of modern day isolationism.

The issue is tied in with nationalism and is not about illegals so much as about protecting our national fantasy over what will protect America from the reality of a growingly competitive world.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 01-06-2017 9:29 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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 Message 808 by Chiroptera, posted 05-13-2017 10:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8800
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 10.0


(3)
Message 807 of 1491 (808814)
05-13-2017 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 806 by Phat
05-13-2017 8:03 AM


Wall symbolism
Yesterday I was thinking about the symbolism of "the wall" and I thought of how America was isolationist in the years before WW II. The lightbulb went on, and I realized that this whole idea of a wall is a symbolic form of modern day isolationism.

The issue is tied in with nationalism and is not about illegals so much as about protecting our national fantasy over what will protect America from the reality of a growingly competitive world.

I like that thought, Phat. Very insightful!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 806 by Phat, posted 05-13-2017 8:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6397
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


(3)
Message 808 of 1491 (808817)
05-13-2017 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 806 by Phat
05-13-2017 8:03 AM


...about protecting our national fantasy....
Paul Krugman recently wrote a column in the New York Times saying basically the same thing about "coal jobs." Krugman points out that not very many West Virginians have jobs in the coal industry any more and the vast majority of jobs that have disappeared over the years aren't coming back.

An industry that does employ a lot of West Virginians is health care and related services.

Yet West Virginia went for Trump in a big way.

Paul Krugman writes:

“Coal country” residents weren’t voting to preserve what they have, or had until recently; they were voting on behalf of a story their region tells about itself, a story that hasn’t been true for a generation or more.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 806 by Phat, posted 05-13-2017 8:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by 14174dm, posted 05-13-2017 1:35 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
14174dm
Member
Posts: 128
Joined: 10-12-2015


Message 809 of 1491 (808824)
05-13-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by Chiroptera
05-13-2017 10:32 AM


Re: ...about protecting our national fantasy....
WV coal jobs have been disappearing due to factors other than regulation.

Machination is the biggest. Once upon a time, coal was dug by hand with picks and pry bars. Loaded into carts by hand to be hauled to the surface by trains. Hundreds employed per mine

Now long wall mining rips tons of coal per hour by giant router, dumps the coal on a high speed conveyor belt. Tens employed per mine.

Exhaustion of the economically accessed coal is another big factor. Thick, shallow seams are gone. What's left is deeper (more expensive) and thinner seams.

Loss of market also factors in with China pushing to reduce pollution and source more locally.

I wonder how much the debt loads on the corporations are a factor. If the CEOs bought mines at inflated prices assuming China would buy everything and US demand would only go up, any drop in price would force mines to close because they couldn't cover the debt load. Debt may be the true killer of coal jobs.

Meanwhile workers with skills that don't transfer well to other jobs are trapped in very rural areas. In a culture that emphasizes family & local tradition, leaving is difficult. If they have financial struggles, how can they afford to move to find new work?


This message is a reply to:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1010
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 810 of 1491 (808885)
05-14-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 800 by Taq
05-12-2017 1:22 PM


Watergate/Nixon and Trump. Parallels.
I was just reading todays New York Times , Book Review section, which had Joe Klein reviewing a Pat Buchanan book on "Nixon's White House Wars".

Trump was described as a reincarnation of Buchanan.

quote:

P. 32
Indeed, he's a reactionary who was also an avatar: the first Trumpist.

....
...issues that Buchanan has been thumping for the past 50 years, and that Donald Trump exploited in 2016. ...We are, for the moment, living in Pat Buchanan''s world.


Irony really comes in when tape recordings are mentioned.

quote:

Buchanan was boggled by Watergate, which he considered stupid. Why bug the Democrats when Nixon''s new majority is about to win bigly? Somehow he managed to skate through the scandal, compartmentalized, kept out of the loop, but asked for cleanup advice - and famously told Nixon to "burn the tapes ."


Trump seems to have tapes too?

Are there other parallels?

We know that Nixon thought that the plumbers were conducting a CIA operation ( to get "Bay of Pigs " files ) for CIA director Helms. Nixon thought his coverup was on behalf of a CIA operation.

Helms shouted to Nixon "This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Bay of Pigs! "

Helms denial had to do with Nixon talking to him as if Watergate was a CIA operation over JFK files (thought to be deposited in Hank Greenspun's safe in Las Vegas and in the DNC headquarters ), and Helms (aware of the Plumbers and the coverup, but not aware of the Nixon tapes? ) was telling Nixon that this wasn't a CIA operation.

H. R. Haldeman wrote long ago that Nixon always used "Bay of Pigs" as code for the Kennedy assassination.

Nixon was obsessed with getting files on JFK assassination from Helms. After Helms refusing his requests, Helms gave him a thin little file, claiming it was all the CIA possessed on the "Bay of Pigs ".

Nixon knew it was HELMS offering a double book type of decoy file, and that the much thicker actual classified material was kept from him.

Nixon said (if I remember correctly ):

"Now we know that they [CIA] keep secrets from even the President of the United States "

Parallels?

Do you think Trump was asking Comey a bunch of questions about odd classified stuff?

Would Trump leaking recordings of the conversations be embarrassing to the FBI and CIA?

Is Trump about to go to war with the intelligence apparatus?

General Alexander Haige said, during the Watergate investigation (when the tapes became known ), " better the President alone goes down, instead of taking the entire intelligence apparatus along with him ". (my paraphrase but it is close to his words )

Trump won't roll over and he would surely rather bring down the alphabet intel agencies AND do it while preferably remaining on his own two feet .

I wonder if there are parallels.

Trump would not roll over so easily.


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