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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1126 of 1540 (818000)
08-22-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1120 by xongsmith
08-18-2017 3:55 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
My question is whether or not there was a reason they would want to march with you? And then thinking what reason would you have had to march with this Charlotteville group instead of against it?

Well, I thinks it is stupid to tear down old statues. And I don't give a shit if some asshole also thinks that.

But what would be your "different reason" here, in this case?

The stated reason for the protest was not tearing a statue down. If some assholes show up to display their anti-semitism, that doesn't mean I have to no longer want to preserve the statue.

Perhaps you might be talking about something else like Stopping A Pipeline?

Hadn't thought of it, but let me use that to further illustrate my point:

The natives were protesting the pipeline.
Say some neo-nazis show up who also do not want the pipeline and stand with the natives.
Some leftists are saying that makes the natives neo-nazis as well. I don't agree.
Other leftists would present two choices to the natives:
1. Just leave - I don't think they should have to stop fighting against the pipeline.
2. Join the other side - I don't think they should have to start supporting the pipeline.

I think they also have the option of ignoring the neo-nazis, or telling them to fuck off, and then just keep doing what they're doing.

The problem is that leftists will start calling them NAZIS and think it is okay to start punching them.

That is unacceptable.

There are, actually, more than two sides in that situation.

Make sense?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1120 by xongsmith, posted 08-18-2017 3:55 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1127 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2017 2:17 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1127 of 1540 (818001)
08-22-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1126 by New Cat's Eye
08-22-2017 2:03 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
Some leftists are saying that makes the natives neo-nazis as well. I don't agree.

That is not what anyone is saying. Dr. Jones explained exactly what he meant, yet you continue to misinterpret his statement in opposition to an argument that no one is making.

The organizers of the march; the ones who fought in court to have the march were not Percy's historical preservation society. So we know that Charlottesville was not a bunch of history lovers overtaken by supremacists and neos. The Nazi's were the marchers. They were given a plan for keeping themselves separate from protesters and they did not follow it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1126 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 2:03 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1128 of 1540 (818002)
08-22-2017 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1121 by Percy
08-19-2017 8:24 AM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
It was not the situation in Charlottesville of Unite the Right protestors mixing in to a larger group protesting statue removal.

Sure, but it is safe to presume that some of the people there were not FUCKING NAZIS.

It is wrong to assume that everyone there was a FUCKING NAZI.

It is doubly wrong to think that everyone on the "wrong" side deserves to be punched.

Those are the points I've been trying to make.

This is a long video, but just watch the first minute.

I watched the whole thing a couple days ago. I remember thinking: "Wow, those are some shitty assholes." IIRC, I was surprised that they didn't care about color that much and were mostly just concerned with the Jews. But I've watched a few other videos on the subject so I may be misremembering. When I can again, if it matters, I'll re-watch it and better reply to the content of the video.

We're talking about Charlottesville and what happened there, not some scenario you're making up

Excuse me: I didn't make up the 10+1 scenario, I responded to it.

If you have a group of white supremacists, white nationalists, Nazis, KKK and militia chanting, "The Jews will not replace us" and "Whose streets? Our streets!" and so forth, and you join them, guess what it means? You're one of them.

Sure, but if you're not one of those and they join you, that does not make you one of them.

You're like Trump, trying to provide cover for groups with messages of hate, division and exclusion.

Ha! That's so stupid I don't think you're even reading my posts. Don't troll me bro.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1121 by Percy, posted 08-19-2017 8:24 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1129 by PaulK, posted 08-22-2017 2:35 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 1134 by Percy, posted 08-22-2017 4:15 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13367
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1129 of 1540 (818003)
08-22-2017 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1128 by New Cat's Eye
08-22-2017 2:20 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
If there is a rally intended to "unite the right", and if it is full of Nazis I think it is pretty clear that anybody joining in is happy to ally with Nazis.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1128 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 2:20 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1130 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 3:08 PM PaulK has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1130 of 1540 (818007)
08-22-2017 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1129 by PaulK
08-22-2017 2:35 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
I don't care what you think as long as you're not advocating punching people.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1129 by PaulK, posted 08-22-2017 2:35 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1131 by PaulK, posted 08-22-2017 3:15 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13367
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1131 of 1540 (818010)
08-22-2017 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1130 by New Cat's Eye
08-22-2017 3:08 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
But I am not happy to see you try and pretend that the people happily and knowingly marching with Nazis - on a rally intended to promote alliance between Right Wing groups - are anything less than willing to ally with Nazis, even if not actual Nazis themselves.

Even if you were talking about the Ku Klux Klan rally in July that was all about the statue it would be bad enough, since the KKK organised the rally and everyone knew it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1130 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 3:08 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 3:47 PM PaulK has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1132 of 1540 (818013)
08-22-2017 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1131 by PaulK
08-22-2017 3:15 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
But I am not happy to see you try and pretend that the people happily and knowingly marching with Nazis -

Well, I'm talking about people who are not "happily and knowingly marching with Nazis"...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1131 by PaulK, posted 08-22-2017 3:15 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1133 by PaulK, posted 08-22-2017 3:52 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13367
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1133 of 1540 (818014)
08-22-2017 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1132 by New Cat's Eye
08-22-2017 3:47 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
Then you are not talking about Charlottesville. Indeed, even the ten to one phrase you objected to involved people happy to hang out with a Nazi.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 3:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16298
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1134 of 1540 (818016)
08-22-2017 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1128 by New Cat's Eye
08-22-2017 2:20 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
New Cat's Eye writes:

It was not the situation in Charlottesville of Unite the Right protestors mixing in to a larger group protesting statue removal.

Sure,...

Good, but reread your Message 1114 that I was replying to. Across several paragraphs it was about bad guys showing up to make good guys look bad.

You concluded that message by again touching on violence, so I'll repeat that of course we should always be against violence from any side, whether white supremacists, white nationalists, KKK, Nazis, militia, or antifa.

If you have a group of white supremacists, white nationalists, Nazis, KKK and militia chanting, "The Jews will not replace us" and "Whose streets? Our streets!" and so forth, and you join them, guess what it means? You're one of them.

Sure, but if you're not one of those and they join you, that does not make you one of them.

You just agreed that Charlottesville wasn't a case of bad guys showing up to make good guys look bad, and now you're going back on yourself.

You're like Trump, trying to provide cover for groups with messages of hate, division and exclusion.

Ha! That's so stupid I don't think you're even reading my posts. Don't troll me bro.

How you look to others isn't for you to say. If you believe the message of Charlottesville is that messages of hate and exclusion should be called out for what they are then be clear about it. What I see is a nod toward opposing Nazis, then a lot of argument about bad guys making good guys look bad. You *are* pretty much communicating the same message as Trump. If you don't want to look like him, don't join him.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1128 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 2:20 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1150 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 12:22 PM Percy has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1135 of 1540 (818017)
08-22-2017 4:17 PM


Lets Move On to Afghanistan
I propose that we move on to the next big event in the Trump Presidency.

What does everyone think of the Afghanistan recommitment?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

Replies to this message:
 Message 1136 by PaulK, posted 08-22-2017 4:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1138 by jar, posted 08-22-2017 5:29 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13367
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1136 of 1540 (818021)
08-22-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1135 by Phat
08-22-2017 4:17 PM


Re: Lets Move On to Afghanistan
It looks like just more of the same and I expect it to be every bit as successful as past attempts.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1135 by Phat, posted 08-22-2017 4:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3998
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1137 of 1540 (818025)
08-22-2017 4:44 PM


Oh Noes! Trump Never Said The Words 'Radical Islam' In Afghanistan Speech

quote:
When President Obama first took office, conservatives concocted a bogus talking point that since Obama refused to denounce "radical Islam" as purveyors of terrorism, the U.S. couldn't defeat them because we don't even know their name.

This nonsense was a constant refrain for eight years even during the 2016 presidential election:

quote:
Obama “disgracefully refused to even say the words ‘Radical Islam’,” Trump said in a statement Sunday. “For that reason alone, he should step down.

Trump even said it soon after the terror attacks in Barcelona on August, 18th:



  
jar
Member
Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1138 of 1540 (818031)
08-22-2017 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1135 by Phat
08-22-2017 4:17 PM


Re: Lets Move On to Afghanistan
Utterly stupid.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1135 by Phat, posted 08-22-2017 4:17 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1139 by Phat, posted 08-22-2017 5:34 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1139 of 1540 (818032)
08-22-2017 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1138 by jar
08-22-2017 5:29 PM


Re: Lets Move On to Afghanistan
I fear that it will be the final nail in the coffin of my retirement.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1138 by jar, posted 08-22-2017 5:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1140 by jar, posted 08-22-2017 6:49 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1140 of 1540 (818037)
08-22-2017 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1139 by Phat
08-22-2017 5:34 PM


Re: Lets Move On to Afghanistan
The issue of Afghanistan is not really new news. While at least one Great Power did originate in Afghanistan that created an enormous and enduring empire not a single example of outside successful invasion has happened. Interestingly, even during the 12th century expansion that created the Great Indus Valley empire the rule and order part existed mostly outside Afghanistan. Internally the areas we identify today as Afghanistan remained a troubled area.

There is simply no example I am aware of of a successful internal nation state in Afghanistan and instead a long list of failed attempts by outside powers, Russian, French, English, American, Pakistani, Indian to invade, conquer, stabilize, contain, control or influence "Afghanistan".

What is different about the latest planned attempts?

AbE:

Even the Maurya Empire which probably came the closest to incorporating Afghanistan into the wider world only lasted a few hundred years, from around 300BCE to around 185 BCE.

Edited by jar, : see AbE


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1139 by Phat, posted 08-22-2017 5:34 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1141 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 12:51 AM jar has responded

  
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