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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Phat
Member
Posts: 9767
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1141 of 1205 (818049)
08-23-2017 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1140 by jar
08-22-2017 6:49 PM


Re: Lets Move On to Afghanistan
What is different about the latest planned attempts?
Perhaps it is (Reuters)The victor, the spoils? Trump eyes Afghanistan's elusive mineral riches also found at Newsweek: HOW WILL TRUMP PAY FOR AFGHANISTAN? PRESIDENT WANTS TO TAP MINERALS IN WAR-TORN COUNTRY

According to the experts, the problem is lack of transportation and infrastructure to extract these minerals. We will have to spend a trillion to extract these minerals.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1140 by jar, posted 08-22-2017 6:49 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1142 by jar, posted 08-23-2017 6:46 AM Phat has responded
 Message 1143 by Pressie, posted 08-23-2017 8:29 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 1147 by DrJones*, posted 08-23-2017 10:30 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1142 of 1205 (818051)
08-23-2017 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1141 by Phat
08-23-2017 12:51 AM


Re: Lets Move On to Afghanistan
Still the same story. Whether the spoils are Opium or Lithium or Copper, there has never been a successful military conquest of Afghanistan. And dropping bombs hardly seems the coast effective way to build the infrastructure needed to exploit those resources.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1141 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 12:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1144 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 8:31 AM jar has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 1143 of 1205 (818053)
08-23-2017 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1141 by Phat
08-23-2017 12:51 AM


Re: Lets Move On to Afghanistan
Thanks for this. The organisation I work for signed an agreement with some Pakistani agency to do exploration very close to the Afghan border. Pay is very good; but while the Pres. of the US threatens people I don't think I'm going to participate in the project. I don't want to be a victim of collateral damage.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1141 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 12:51 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9767
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1144 of 1205 (818054)
08-23-2017 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1142 by jar
08-23-2017 6:46 AM


Afghanistan: What is real?
The public reaction is swift.

quote:
In response to Donald Trump’s address on the way forward in Afghanistan, Ilya Sheyman, executive director of MoveOn.org Political Action, released the following statement:

“Donald Trump’s plan to double down on a military deployment in Afghanistan would be a military, economic, and humanitarian disaster. After decades of conflict, tens of thousands dead or wounded, and trillions in projected U.S. taxpayer dollars spent, putting more lives on the line to continue the fighting will do nothing to put an end to this bloody war.

“There is no military solution to Afghanistan’s challenges.

“Congress must reassert its authority over war-making, repeal the 2001 Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF), and debate and vote on whether or not to authorize ongoing military operations in Afghanistan.

“The timing of tonight’s speech is telling: With his approval ratings at an all-time low, Trump is beating the war drums in an attempt to divert the American people’s attention from his abhorrent failure to condemn the white supremacist terror in Charlottesville.”


I read a lot of information on the internet and these days it is becoming more and more challenging to honestly separate propaganda from fact. In the final analysis, the facts are based largely on the perceptions, beliefs, and opinions of the people. Thus, in a sense, deciding what is and is not fake news is a bit like voting. One simply chooses which source to trust and which adequately conforms to their beliefs.

Do you have any pointers or suggestions on how you would equip the public to sift through the mass glut and deluge of information, opinion, and written news that we see every day?

Edited by Phat, : added quote bracket


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1142 by jar, posted 08-23-2017 6:46 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1145 by Pressie, posted 08-23-2017 8:59 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 1146 by jar, posted 08-23-2017 10:23 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 1148 by NosyNed, posted 08-23-2017 10:53 AM Phat has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 1145 of 1205 (818056)
08-23-2017 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1144 by Phat
08-23-2017 8:31 AM


Re: Afghanistan: What is real?
Phat writes:

Do you have any pointers or suggestions on how you would equip the public to sift through the mass glut and deluge of information, opinion, and written news that we see every day?

The most reliable way is to accept scientific consensus.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1144 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 8:31 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1146 of 1205 (818067)
08-23-2017 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1144 by Phat
08-23-2017 8:31 AM


Re: Afghanistan: What is real?
Phat writes:

Do you have any pointers or suggestions on how you would equip the public to sift through the mass glut and deluge of information, opinion, and written news that we see every day?

None that we have not talked about in the past.

The first step is that people have to learn how to consciously discriminate. That is not quick or easily done.

Remember logic, reason, reality. Logic is a nice tool but it is the lowest, least reliable of the three. Something may be eminently logical but simply fail when tested by reason (reason, NOT preference). Finally reality trumps both reason and logic.

You need to separate those hings that are testable and facts from those things that are not testable and simply opinion.

Regarding Afghanistan we can list those things that can be called Facts:

the resources exist

Factual Problems:
the infrastructure needed to exploit the resources does not exist
part of the needed infrastructure is a functioning local, state and national government
another infrastructure needed is an environment dominated by the rule of law
historically none of the items listed when created by war and invasion has had a long lifespan
any solution must be made by the Afghans themselves

the next step is to try to plan some method to address the problems that has any chance of success.

Can it be done?

Of course. Vietnam, Thailand and Cambodia are great examples. Once the US got out of trying to impose an External Military solution the Vietnamese, Cambodians and Thais developed solutions such that today all three are active trading partners with the US and both the US and each of those nations benefit from the changed process.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1144 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 8:31 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1679
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 1147 of 1205 (818069)
08-23-2017 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1141 by Phat
08-23-2017 12:51 AM


Re: Lets Move On to Afghanistan
According to the experts, the problem is lack of transportation and infrastructure to extract these minerals. We will have to spend a trillion to extract these minerals.

He said in the announcement that they won't be there to do nation building. Going to be awful hard to build and secure the infrastructure to exploit those resources without a secure nation.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1141 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 12:51 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8799
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 9.1


(3)
Message 1148 of 1205 (818070)
08-23-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1144 by Phat
08-23-2017 8:31 AM


Fake, Wrong, or Hard to know
This is not an example that is going to allow a determination of "fake" or not "fake" news.

It is an opinion piece. To decide if you'll give it some credence yourself you have to apply what you do know from what has happened in the past.

For starters, you gotta actually know something. Most of us have only a cursory idea of what has been done and what happened in Afghanistan etc.

What I might say if pressed to pick a side in this is:
The past use of military has either been too little or too much. We (the west) did enough to disrupt things and then ran or we used the military when it needed a lot of different kinds of intervention.

Would I say that we can smash a society down and keep it that way with only the military? Has it worked in the past? Sure, but not often and not indefinitely.

How would I react if I was people there? Not well is an answer that you might apply to yourself or your neighbors.

Depending on what you think you know about the past and how people react you can pick one of the opinions given.

Separately from a guess (opinion, educated or not) on how much sense any action in the middle east makes is the opinion (guess) on what the motivations and timing of this are.

That depends on what you think of how Trump thinks. If you actually like this guy you may say he is showing leadership and it is time for him to make this decision. If you are me you can easily be convinced he is grandstanding and trying to redirect attention. But do you or I know his true motives? No, we don't so we construct an opinion.

There is no fake or not fake news here. There are expressed opinions with varying amounts of support.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1144 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 8:31 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1149 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 11:43 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9767
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1149 of 1205 (818081)
08-23-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1148 by NosyNed
08-23-2017 10:53 AM


Re: Fake, Wrong, or Hard to know
you can easily be convinced he (Trump) is grandstanding and trying to redirect attention.
That's horrible, though! It sounds like an awfully expensive way to divert attention. America cannot afford more wars abroad. We simply need to rebuild our own infrastructure!

I have a question for all of you at large:

What is it that is so important about what we do overseas? Are we afraid that the world will pass us by and deal without us? Is that why we are hunting terrorists and controlling foreign resources?

I fear that Trump is going to bring this country to its knees and that he really doesn't care. He is only concerned about the monied class. Is there any reason to believe that I am overreacting?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1148 by NosyNed, posted 08-23-2017 10:53 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1153 by Taq, posted 08-24-2017 11:19 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1150 of 1205 (818089)
08-23-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1134 by Percy
08-22-2017 4:15 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
Good, but reread your Message 1114 that I was replying to. Across several paragraphs it was about bad guys showing up to make good guys look bad.

Right, and as I've explicitly said: that is a point of principle.

I'm not going to get into the specifics of Charlottesville until we can establish the principle first.

Your side is prejudging individuals on an unverified perception of being members of a group and that is wrong. If we can't agree on that first, then there isn't much I can say about Charlottesville that wouldn't just be repeating obvious truths - and I'd rather debate than circlejerk.

The sentiment from your side is still that if I'm not talking about FUCKING NAZIS then I cannot be talking about anyone that protested the statue removal at Charlottesville - I can't agree to that.

Yes, all of the white supremacists are stupid assholes that we should all oppose and tell to fuck off. I'm just not willing to assume that every single person who wanted to protest the removal of the statue was a white supremacists.

And apparently I cannot be opposed to prejudice without being lumped in as supporting the bad guys. That's why I have to establish the principle first, otherwise y'all are gonna start calling me a FUCKING NAZI too.

Which seems to be all a part of the trick - lump all of them together into one evil group and then throw anyone who doesn't immediately join your side into that group as well. That way, everyone is either with you or against you and then you can fight everyone who doesn't join your side - there are no innocent bystanders, there are no third parties, it is purely the good guys versus the bad guys Apparently, I can't even question that mentality without being accused of supporting the bad guys.

No, that is dangerous and evil - maybe even more so than those stupid white supremacists.

Considering this grouping, though, I have a question: What, exactly, is a "white nationalist"? Like, if there is a white guy, and he loves his country, does that make him a white nationalist? 'Cause that isn't a big deal, why would they be being lumped in as well?

You just agreed that Charlottesville wasn't a case of bad guys showing up to make good guys look bad, and now you're going back on yourself.

I'm not going back on myself, I'm just talking about two different things. It's really not difficult

How you look to others isn't for you to say. If you believe the message of Charlottesville is that messages of hate and exclusion should be called out for what they are then be clear about it. What I see is a nod toward opposing Nazis, then a lot of argument about bad guys making good guys look bad. You *are* pretty much communicating the same message as Trump. If you don't want to look like him, don't join him.

Well if that's how you want to play: you're coming off as being just as bigoted as antifa.

You'd rather presume that everyone that you think might be in a group is definitely a bad person that we all should hate, and I'm not willing to be an asshole like that.

I can't believe that it has to be said that prejudice is wrong.

Also, I never said that the people that I am unwilling to assume are bad are actually good guys - I'm just not prejudging them at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1134 by Percy, posted 08-22-2017 4:15 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1151 by Modulous, posted 08-23-2017 2:37 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 1152 by Percy, posted 08-23-2017 3:54 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7429
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 1151 of 1205 (818104)
08-23-2017 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1150 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2017 12:22 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
Your side is prejudging individuals on an unverified perception of being members of a group and that is wrong. If we can't agree on that first, then there isn't much I can say about Charlottesville that wouldn't just be repeating obvious truths - and I'd rather debate than circlejerk.

Well if Black Lives Matter leaders organise a Black Lives Matter march and the crowd that gathers chants Black Lives Matter slogans, carries Black Lives Matter banners at a site where a Black person lost their life through police action - it seems reasonable to infer that as a general rule, anybody marching is likely to agree with the core points of the BLM movement.

I think the same applies when White Supremacist leaders organise a right-wing protest, chant white supremacist slogans and carry white supremacist flags...

Would you agree with this principle?

Obviously it is possible for some people in a march to disagree with those marching - but these would be an anomaly.

The sentiment from your side is still that if I'm not talking about FUCKING NAZIS then I cannot be talking about anyone that protested the statue removal at Charlottesville - I can't agree to that.

Yes, all of the white supremacists are stupid assholes that we should all oppose and tell to fuck off. I'm just not willing to assume that every single person who wanted to protest the removal of the statue was a white supremacists.

But this wasn't just a protest regarding the removal of a statue. It was a white supremacist protest that used the removal of a statue as a rallying call. There may be people who mistakenly joined thinking it was about the removal of a statue -- but look at the videos. Charlottesville's population is 20% black and 5% Asian. How many non-white faces do you see Marching with the protestors? I see a few, but for the most part they seem to be at the edges - so its difficult to say if they are marching with or just watching.

Charlottesville wasn't a general protest that White Supremacists turned up at. It was a White Supremacist march that maybe some non-white-supremacists turned up to. Such people could see the symbols they were marching with, hear the people they marching with. I don't know about you, but I would have stopped marching even if I agreed with the statue thing because I'd have figured out this wasn't about 'uniting the right' or 'preserving history' but about 'far right solidarity / defiance' and would have distanced myself from it.

Anyone who didn't risks getting lumped in with the far right - and they have just as much responsibility as those that lump them with the far right. Just as someone who marches with BLM might be lumped as a BLM supporter even if there was another theme they were protesting and they disagree with BLM.

It may be 'not technically accurate' to say every individual there agrees with far right views - but by marching with them, they were still supporting a far right march, the far right agenda.

Considering this grouping, though, I have a question: What, exactly, is a "white nationalist"? Like, if there is a white guy, and he loves his country, does that make him a white nationalist? 'Cause that isn't a big deal, why would they be being lumped in as well?

There is sometimes a fine line between nationalism, far-right white nationalism, jingoism and patriotism. It depends on the context.

If the country's independence is threatened, or it is a puppet state of an Empire then nationalism may be a perfectly understandable independence movement. The Scottish Nationalists for instance tend towards the idea of an independent Scotland.

However, in an independent country, such nationalism doesn't make sense. To be counted as a nationalist in this context, you have to be beyond normal 'patriotism' - to the point of xenophobia, racism, and well...into the far-right end of the spectrum basically.

I can't believe that it has to be said that prejudice is wrong.

Also, I never said that the people that I am unwilling to assume are bad are actually good guys - I'm just not prejudging them at all.

Sure - but if environmentalists organise a protest regarding the building of a pipeline or a highway and you turn up to that particular protest because you think the pipeline should be replaced by an oil catapult, or the highway isn't going to be wide enough - you're probably undermining your own position and its reasonable for people to count you amongst the 'environmentalists' when pointing at the crowd.

Prejudging people may be bad, but effective communication sometimes means grouping individuals even as we understand opinions can be nuanced.

quote:
If you have 10 people and 1 nazi shows up, you do not, actually, have 11 nazis.

If you have 10 nazis and 1 non-nazi standing together in solidarity - it is reasonable to conclude that over there are about a dozen nazis. It's something we all do - including you. For example:

quote:
The counter protesters lumped everyone into one group and called for violence against them all. They should be ashamed of themselves.

From Message 1114.

ALL the counter protesters ALL lumped everyone into one group and they ALL called for violence against ALL the Unite the Right? That is clearly not true, right? That counter-protester in the wheel chair who was surrounded by torch wielding Unite The Right crying for 'Victory' and loudly cooperating to block off escape routes while she tried to find a way out of the situation was calling for violence? Clearly not. But if you want to argue that 'as a group' the counter-protesters called for violence you might have some grounds for the argument. I'd still think you were wrong, but not as wrong as you are. And those that stand with those calling for violence are de facto supporting the calls for violence just as much as those standing with Nazis are de facto Nazi supporters.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1150 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 12:22 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15917
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 1152 of 1205 (818122)
08-23-2017 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1150 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2017 12:22 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
New Cat's Eye writes:

I'm not going to get into the specifics of Charlottesville until we can establish the principle first.

I was never trying to get further into the specifics of Charlottesville. I think violence on any side is deplorable, but we shouldn't let the violence distract us from the true message of Charlottesville: that groups promoting hate and bigotry and exclusion should be opposed wherever they appear.

What's so hard about saying that you oppose such groups that you have to invent obstacles to saying it?

Your side...

In this discussion I don't really have a side beyond being opposed to those promoting messages of hate, bigotry and exclusion. Why do you think we're on opposite sides? You seem to have painted yourself into a bit of a corner, but I don't think we're on opposite sides.

The sentiment from your side is still that if I'm not talking about FUCKING NAZIS then I cannot be talking about anyone that protested the statue removal at Charlottesville - I can't agree to that.

Uh, no. My own personal feeling is that you're equivocating about condemning those responsible for the hate-motivated demonstrations in Charlottesville. Instead you're talking about confusing good guys with bad guys.

Yes, all of the white supremacists are stupid assholes that we should all oppose and tell to fuck off. I'm just not willing to assume that every single person who wanted to protest the removal of the statue was a white supremacists.

Not something I ever suggested. But it is very hard to accept that anyone marching with the Unite the Right protestors didn't know who they were marching with and what the message was. It's not like they weren't chanting and carrying signs.

Which seems to be all a part of the trick...

There's no trick. If you like your foot in your mouth, well, you put it there, so keep it there if that's what you want.

Apparently, I can't even question that mentality without being accused of supporting the bad guys.

That "mentality" is not something you got from anything *I* wrote, but what's apparently true is that you have preconditions (oh, excuse me, "a point of principle") before you'll condemn messages of hate.

Considering this grouping, though, I have a question: What, exactly, is a "white nationalist"?

A white nationalist is someone who wants the country to be dominated by whites in terms of governance and culture.

Well if that's how you want to play: you're coming off as being just as bigoted as antifa.

Well now you're just being weird, plus Antifa is anti-fascist and anti-racist, not bigoted. I of course oppose Antifa because of their willingness to resort to violence.

You'd rather presume that everyone that you think might be in a group is definitely a bad person that we all should hate, and I'm not willing to be an asshole like that.

Actually I was saying something else and didn't take a stand on that issue. My message is that you're using it as an excuse to avoid committing yourself about opposing groups promoting messages of hate. Congratulations on not prejudging anyone, I agree it's an admirable quality.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1150 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 12:22 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1154 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2017 11:46 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 1153 of 1205 (818151)
08-24-2017 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1149 by Phat
08-23-2017 11:43 AM


Re: Fake, Wrong, or Hard to know
Phat writes:

What is it that is so important about what we do overseas? Are we afraid that the world will pass us by and deal without us? Is that why we are hunting terrorists and controlling foreign resources?

If the US holds sway overseas then we can change things in our own national interests. In the post WW II era, the US has been a largely stabilizing force (with a few missteps) on the world stage after decades of atrocious and costly wars that spanned the globe.

What would the world look like if the US abandoned this role? Perhaps there would be other major players that would step up and fill that role (e.g. France, UK) in a way that aligned with US values. There could have also been other less desirable nations that stepped forward, such as Russia or China.

Perhaps 100 years ago we could have argued for US isolationism, but I don't think that can be argued anymore. What we have is an international "Game of Thrones", and the one way to guarantee a loss is to not play.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1149 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 11:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9928
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1154 of 1205 (818157)
08-24-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1152 by Percy
08-23-2017 3:54 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
A white nationalist is someone who wants the country to be dominated by whites in terms of governance and culture.

Interesting definition.

I say that not because I have a problem with your definition. I think you are entirely correct. However, I think the term covers a spectrum of behavior that ranges between something acceptable and something racist in the extreme.

You want to be proud of your Anglican or Aryan roots. Well, there is nothing particularly wrong with that. You worry about Hispanics becoming prominent when the ATM asks you what language to use, then you are at another place on the spectrum. You want America to be a completely white nation, and you are ready to fight about it? Then you are at yet another place on the spectrum. Did you drive your car over some anti-Klan protesters in the street... I think you get the picture.

One of the things that inhibit discussion on this topic is that folks don't like the lumping that invariably happens. Folks who want to celebrate statues of Robert E. Lee might not feel that they belong anywhere on that spectrum, but likely they would have a hard time convincing me that they aren't smack dab in the middle of it, if not way right.

I don't know what New Cat's Eyes's exact issue is. It may be something different from the one I am currently discussing. But given the fact that you and I have disparate views on the subject of historical monuments, but share similar difficulties in getting NCE to explain his position, I am leaning towards blaming any disconnect on his communication skills. He is just not being clear and thus gives the impression of holding back.

I suggest that NCE just speak plainly about his position, and ignore the fact that folks like me might think lesser of him. He may get called on that, but at least he will have a chance to explain. But so far, what he says is incoherent. He is requiring folks to guess what he means.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1152 by Percy, posted 08-23-2017 3:54 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1155 by ringo, posted 08-24-2017 11:55 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1156 by Diomedes, posted 08-24-2017 2:36 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1155 of 1205 (818159)
08-24-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1154 by NoNukes
08-24-2017 11:46 AM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
NoNukes writes:

You worry about Hispanics becoming prominent when the ATM asks you what language to use, then you are at another place on the spectrum.


I don't like it when the ATM asks what language I want to use - but the French are as white as I am. We have more Chinese speakers than French speakers around here. In fact, you can find ATMs that speak Chinese but that's because of the demand, not because it's mandated by law. We also have a statue of Confucius.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1154 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2017 11:46 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
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