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Author Topic:   Welfare - what is it and who benefits
RAZD
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Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 31 of 70 (797292)
01-16-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
01-15-2017 6:51 PM


I don't get compensated for making my bed or doing my laundry either. I think it is difficult to make the case that you should be compensated for raising your own kids.

So we shouldn't have tax breaks for raising families?

Curiously I think it is of benefit to society as a whole to have well nourished, healthy kids, and I do think this is best provided by parents rather than the state. How people decide to share time and resources between themselves and others is up to them, but a universal basic living income would go a long way to improving childcare, imho.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 01-15-2017 6:51 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2017 3:17 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 32 of 70 (797293)
01-16-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by New Cat's Eye
01-14-2017 9:17 PM


Re: Myth #2: Welfare Recipients Are Lazy
Working hard on a project while that one guy in the group doen't do anything sucks, but capitalizing on that reward drives you to do it anyways.

Agreed, and that would not be taken away with minimum wage or living basic income -- you would still have the ability to drive and increase your returns.

And if you aren't hampered by someone who doesn't want to be there it would be even easier. It's like people taking the bus make it easier for people to drive.

Trying to make that out as some kind of pathology is a little disgusting, at face value.

Then you are either missing the point or taking umbrage at something that only applies in extreme conditions. Compare a person who has a few cats to one with a household of cats (addicted to cats?).

I haven't read this thread, and I'm not sure I want to...

Perhaps because it goes against your biases. Your loss.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-14-2017 9:17 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-16-2017 2:10 PM RAZD has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 33 of 70 (797298)
01-16-2017 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by RAZD
01-16-2017 12:41 PM


Don't Demonize
Working hard on a project while that one guy in the group doen't do anything sucks, but capitalizing on that reward drives you to do it anyways.

Agreed, and that would not be taken away with minimum wage or living basic income -- you would still have the ability to drive and increase your returns.

I think you're missing my point:

People don't generally like to be forced to help bums (people who don't contribute but do take). On the other hand, they will totally help people when they want to, and also if it benefits themselves. But being forced to out of the goodness of their hearts? Not so much.

So sticking with the group project analogy: Pointing out that this percentage of group project bums receives a passing grade in the class, and that percentage of bums actually benefits educationally from the project even though they didn't contribute, is not going to make people feel better about, or want to start, being forced into helping the bums more. (staying in the analogy here, I'm not equating welfare benefactors with bums, and by bum I don't mean "homeless person", I mean like bumming a cigarette, or not contributing to a group project)

A better approach for the use of force, in my opinion, is to realize the benefits that contributors will receive if they capitalize on the reward they'll get even despite the bum not doing anything. I guess; more carrot, less stick.

Trying to make that out as some kind of pathology is a little disgusting, at face value.

Then you are either missing the point or taking umbrage at something that only applies in extreme conditions. Compare a person who has a few cats to one with a household of cats (addicted to cats?).

I probably am missing the point. Why are you equating capitalists to patholical people?

Are you failing to recognize that, while capitalism doesn't drive public spending on welfare, that many capitalists do a lot privately to help a lot of people?

I haven't read this thread, and I'm not sure I want to...

Perhaps because it goes against your biases.

I knew you'd say that. Perhaps your argument really is disgusting. Demonizing people with different opinions is pretty awful.

Your loss.

Not really. I didn't start the thread and I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything. Plus, I'm a fairly conservative person so unless you're just trying to have a circlejerk and pat yourselves on the backs for all the great beliefs you have, then I suppose I should be a part of your target audience.

For what it's worth, I see quite of bit of non-sequiturs in your "myth-arguments"...

For example, the mythological "welfare queen"... I've seen and talked with people like that around where I live. Your argument that "nuh-uh, the corporations are the real welfare queens" rings hallow and doesn't negate the people that I've met.

Or, that welfare payments are too high... Talking about the cost of the average benefit per person does nothing to negate my experience with the guy I met who was selling stacks of food stamps outside the grocery store at half price so he could convert them into cash money.

Regarding the effectiveness of welfare, your argument assumes that if the government stopped providing assistance then people in need would receive absolutely no assistance at all. In reality, there are many non-government programs that provide assistance to poor people.

You also contradict yourself:

quote:
And furthermore, half of all food stamp recipients are children. More than 82% of all food stamp money goes to households that include children, elderly people, or people with disabilities.These are people who legally or physically cannot work and live at the mercy of the system.

What the data shows is that most people on various welfare programs ARE working, sometimes 2 or 3 jobs, but the PAY is not enough to live on and they qualify for benefits because their income is low.

Personally, I prefer to make my own decisions on how my money goes to help people, rather than throwing it into a tax-pool and letting other people decide how to use it. I'm a capitalist who does like to help people, and I'm not pathological nor psychopathic. I try not to let my personal beliefs get in the way of business, but socially I'm very generous and considerate. So I'm most likely not going support government welfare programs that much, but that doesn't really reflect my character.

And for you to demonize your opponents as pathological people is just wrong. Plus, it's totally ruining your argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by RAZD, posted 01-16-2017 12:41 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2017 3:21 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
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 Message 45 by Modulous, posted 01-17-2017 2:55 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 34 of 70 (797304)
01-16-2017 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
01-16-2017 11:21 AM


Unemployment creates a lot of work for the people doing the hiring.

Yeah. They have to walk over to the waste basket and 86 all of those resumes that they are not even going to read. Often in situations where an employer gets hundreds of resumes, HR reduces the pile by using some kind of software screening, perhaps based on keywords, to reduce the pile to something manageable.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 01-16-2017 11:21 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 35 of 70 (797305)
01-16-2017 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by RAZD
01-16-2017 12:33 PM


So we shouldn't have tax breaks for raising families?

There are some tax breaks for raising a family, but you talked about compensation. But no I don't think you should be compensated for raising your own kids.

Curiously I think it is of benefit to society as a whole to have well nourished, healthy kids

So do I. It's also the case that parents see a benefit in having healthy kids, so they have an incentive to spend money on accomplishing that.

Quite frankly, what we are arguing about here is socialism vs socialized democracy to some extent. You may be a bit further to the left than I. If folks are paid a living wage for what they do, then they are able to take care of their families. I'm all for that. But that does not mean that when parents make personal decisions about how many kids they want to have, or whether to use daycare or stay at home, that society ought to pick up the tab for every possible option.

Now things might be different if we as a society want to manage or maximize the number of kids that are born for some reason.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by RAZD, posted 01-16-2017 12:33 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(3)
Message 36 of 70 (797306)
01-16-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
01-16-2017 2:10 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
Personally, I prefer to make my own decisions on how my money goes to help people, rather than throwing it into a tax-pool and letting other people decide how to use it.

Quite obviously that is what you prefer for some things. I suspect that you don't want to build your own roads, raise your own army, and I suspect that you don't home school your kids. Isn't it really the idea that people are getting money that you don't think they deserve a fairly significant part of why public welfare is different from spending on a public road?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-16-2017 2:10 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-16-2017 4:08 PM NoNukes has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 37 of 70 (797311)
01-16-2017 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by NoNukes
01-16-2017 3:21 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
Isn't it really the idea that people are getting money that you don't think they deserve a fairly significant part of why public welfare is different from spending on a public road?

Hey, there you go demonizing me. You guys just can't help yourselves, can you? My opinion is different from yours so there must be something wrong with me, right?

No, it has nothing to do with what people deserve. I just prefer private enterprise over public ones.

I suspect you folks on the left realize that you can't really win the hearts and minds of those with different opinions than yours', so you're so big on public enterprises because know that the only way to get them on board is by force through government. I consider that immoral.

I suspect that you don't want to build your own roads,

I've driven on the Dulles Greenway, and do prefer and always choose to pay for that privately owned highway over the public ones around there. I'd bet the other privately owned highways in America are better and preferable, too. Not that I'm promoting that as a be-all and end-all solution to our highway systems...

raise your own army,

Ahem, do you really support the financing of our military at the expense of other programs?

and I suspect that you don't home school your kids.

I don't have any kids, but I've never been to a public school. And I know that my private school education was better than the public ones around.

I'm not saying that the public options shouldn't exist, I just don't like being demonized for having the opinion of not wanting to be forced into them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2017 3:21 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2017 2:48 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1360
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 38 of 70 (797313)
01-16-2017 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
01-14-2017 9:50 AM


Re: Captalism selects for (rewards) psycopathy?
As social systems evolve we see a trend towards increased social programs being democratically applied, universal health care, free university, etc etc etc, and the logical next step is a guaranteed living income.

I can only read this with a sense of deep bafflement and confusion? In which world do you live?

Since the 1980s there has been a clear and unmistakable trend throughout the Western world for a rolling back of the welfare state. I am not claiming that this is a good thing, I'm just struggling to understand how it is that you're seeing the opposite?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 01-14-2017 9:50 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 39 of 70 (797315)
01-16-2017 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by caffeine
01-16-2017 4:34 PM


Re: Captalism selects for (rewards) psycopathy?
What gets me is that the facts show that the wealthy are distancing themselves from the rest of us...but that their debt to society is ideologically accepted by the masses yet shunned by the wealthy themselves. How can they accept more wealth and yet deny a social safety net to the casualties of free market economics?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by caffeine, posted 01-16-2017 4:34 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 8 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


(2)
Message 40 of 70 (797321)
01-17-2017 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
01-16-2017 2:10 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
Do you really expect anything less than derision when you freely admit that your position is based on nothing more than your own subjective feelings? The people in your anecdotes aren't representative of the majority of people who collect welfare payments, according to the actual data.

I'm going to try to make your group project analogy more analogous to reality. If the teacher notices that the bum isn't doing much and awards him a C while the rest of the group gets an A, is that fairer?

In Australia, unemployment payments are less than half the minimum wage, around a third of the median wage and around a quarter of the mean wage. It's not like they're receiving the same benefit as a worker without doing any work. So what's the problem?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-16-2017 2:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 41 of 70 (797322)
01-17-2017 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by New Cat's Eye
01-16-2017 4:08 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
Hey, there you go demonizing me. You guys just can't help yourselves, can you? My opinion is different from yours so there must be something wrong with me, right?

I don't think your statement accurately described my response. I did not characterize you in any way. You are demonizing yourself.

No, it has nothing to do with what people deserve. I just prefer private enterprise over public ones.

So you did not write a post comparing welfare to a person in a group laying about while the rest of the folks did the work? Let's see:

People don't generally like to be forced to help bums (people who don't contribute but do take).

So does it matter whether or not the person is a bum or not or was the bum part just for show?

Ahem, do you really support the financing of our military at the expense of other programs?

Are you suggesting that you don't want or need any army? Because I did not suggest that we should not finance only the military. It looks like you are pushing me towards demonizing you.

I've driven on the Dulles Greenway, and do prefer and always choose to pay for that privately owned highway over the public ones around there. I'd bet the other privately owned highways in America are better and preferable, too. Not that I'm promoting that as a be-all and end-all solution to our highway systems

So private roads are not the be-all solution, eh? So I can take it that public spending for some things is okay and your identification of your favorite few roads is an attempt to pretend otherwise. That's how I read what you say.

I'm not saying that the public options shouldn't exist, I just don't like being demonized for having the opinion of not wanting to be forced into them.

Apparently, when I describe someone whose opinion matches what you've expresses the description constitutes demonizing.

Now for your own accusation:

I suspect you folks on the left realize that you can't really win the hearts and minds of those with different opinions than yours', so you're so big on public enterprises because know that the only way to get them on board is by force through government. I consider that immoral.

I know I cannot convince you. That much is true. But petitioning government to carry out functions that constitute a working society is not immoral. We can agree or disagree about what those functions are. I understand that folks differ on that issue. But when I read a post from you challenging the idea that government should be involved in basic functions like building roads or defense, I understand that you are on the extreme part of the spectrum.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-16-2017 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2017 7:37 AM NoNukes has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 42 of 70 (797327)
01-17-2017 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by NoNukes
01-17-2017 2:48 AM


That's how I read what you say.

I don't think I'm capable of effectively communicating with you.

Have a nice day.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2017 2:48 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2017 11:46 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 01-19-2017 11:12 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 43 of 70 (797335)
01-17-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by New Cat's Eye
01-17-2017 7:37 AM


I don't think I'm capable of effectively communicating with you.

You are capable. But you need to sort out your position first.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2017 7:37 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 01-17-2017 2:52 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 44 of 70 (797336)
01-17-2017 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by NoNukes
01-17-2017 11:46 AM


Never say farewell to welfare
I swear! You two!

Welfare is what kept me from being broke in between jobs. I would never take advantage of it, nor would i have refused it. Social safety nets are necessary...without them, people could lose their homes, become homeless...lose their medicines and get sick...all unforeseen perils.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2017 11:46 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by NoNukes, posted 01-19-2017 3:28 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7537
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(4)
Message 45 of 70 (797337)
01-17-2017 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
01-16-2017 2:10 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
So sticking with the group project analogy: Pointing out that this percentage of group project bums receives a passing grade in the class, and that percentage of bums actually benefits educationally from the project even though they didn't contribute, is not going to make people feel better about, or want to start, being forced into helping the bums more.

Fair enough. But then, pointing out that most people are the bum on one project or another - sometimes because they injured themselves on the previous project, or caught a disease from someone else on another project maybe or maybe they are helping teach other people how to work on projects and have less time available to work on this particular project - maybe then they'd have a bit of empathy for the bums they encounter on the projects they are working on.

And maybe if we pointed out that there once was a time when only bums of a certain type, say those who liked certain fruits or a particular band were helped out by their project-mates and those who like that other fruit, or band, were shunned and had to drop out of education - even if they had worked on loads of projects before and now their life is screwed all because they didn't like NSYNC. And maybe if we reminded people from time to time that we can't always be sure what criteria our project-mates will use if and when we have to bum through a few projects for whatever reason, we might realize it is in our self-interest. Maybe then they'd understand that if we divest the decision making to a third party teacher - one that we all vote on to be head of bum-assistance, that might mitigate the arbitrary criteria problem - maybe then it wouldn't feel like being 'forced' but more like its a just a way of doing things that sometimes we don't like but on the whole is for the best. Especially if we remind people that if random events could mean anybody gets kicked out of school (including yourself and your family) that means less people are in school, which means less project-mates in the future which means more work to achieve the same results - which in practice leads to worse results...maybe they'd be less inclined to feel it was forcible.

A better approach for the use of force, in my opinion, is to realize the benefits that contributors will receive if they capitalize on the reward they'll get even despite the bum not doing anything. I guess; more carrot, less stick.

There's plenty of carrot in the tax system, it's just some people only think about the stick. And the 'force' is the same 'force' applied to people that are 'forced' to drive on the right side of the road, pass a test before being allowed to drive, restricting alcohol, tobacco and firearm distribution and so on.

Are you failing to recognize that, while capitalism doesn't drive public spending on welfare, that many capitalists do a lot privately to help a lot of people?

Taxpayers do a lot to help people too. You can have both!

Demonizing people with different opinions is pretty awful.

Well, we've seen what life is like with little to no state welfare - its hell for most people. Perhaps demons is an appropriate term for those that wish to return to it?

Talking about the cost of the average benefit per person does nothing to negate my experience with the guy I met who was selling stacks of food stamps outside the grocery store at half price so he could convert them into cash money.

Well actually it does, that's why averages are used, after all. To show the norm, not highlight the outliers. Is there something wrong about selling resources for liquid capital? I thought you were pro-capitalism?

Regarding the effectiveness of welfare, your argument assumes that if the government stopped providing assistance then people in need would receive absolutely no assistance at all. In reality, there are many non-government programs that provide assistance to poor people.

Sure, but many of those programs do get funding from governments from time to time - and there is clearly not enough of them to do the job. So while some people would be helped, either not everybody would or they would all be helped less.

Personally, I prefer to make my own decisions on how my money goes to help people, rather than throwing it into a tax-pool and letting other people decide how to use it.

Well yes, and that's kind of the problem. There are some groups who need help who aren't as popular as others. Relying on private crowd funding can result in groups who are forgotten, ignored or shunned landing in even more desperate situations. As has, historically, been the case and was the very reason welfare situations came into being.

I'm a capitalist who does like to help people, and I'm not pathological nor psychopathic.

Great. But you are human, and most humans are shitty in a number of ways - many of which they aren't even conscious of. Perhaps you are exceptional, but by definition most people aren't.

I try not to let my personal beliefs get in the way of business

I'm sure you aren't alone. But try as you might, the evidence suggests you do - and if you are exceptional, most are not.

but socially I'm very generous and considerate

That's great, though most people would say this, of course.

So let's say Federal tax was scrapped entirely and you earn $30,000.

How much would you give to social security charities every year? $200? $800? $2,000? This money goes towards the retired, the disabled, the children of the aforementioned etc.

How much money would give towards helping people in need of medical care? $200? $800? $2,000?

How much to the needy - the poor? $50? $300? $2,000?

What do you think the average would be?

If you were earning $60,000 would you give twice as much? Do you think people on average would?

How much time would you spend ensuring the charities you give to are spending effectively? How would you know? How would you be sure the people receiving your generosity truly deserved it and weren't just bumming off you? How much time would you spend ensuring your generosity was being evenly distributed amongst those that need it? How would you learn this? Would you give to many small charities which may be less efficient spending due to larger relative staff overheads, smaller negotiating power to get good deals - or would you go for larger groups who are less focussed but in some ways more efficient - increasing the chances of missing certain groups - but also losing some efficiency on increased fund-raising/marketing efforts to maintain their large size? How do you balance between them? How often would you review your charitable distributions?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-16-2017 2:10 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-18-2017 3:08 PM Modulous has responded

    
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