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Author Topic:   Welfare - what is it and who benefits
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11855
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 46 of 70 (797361)
01-18-2017 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Modulous
01-17-2017 2:55 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
But then, pointing out that most people are the bum on one project or another -

Most people? Really?

And maybe if we pointed out that there once was a time when only bums of a certain type, say those who liked certain fruits or a particular band were helped out by their project-mates and those who like that other fruit, or band, were shunned and had to drop out of education - even if they had worked on loads of projects before and now their life is screwed all because they didn't like NSYNC.

So, some subset of people did not want to help another subset of people. And the answer to that was to force them by government. Or no?

And maybe if we reminded people from time to time that we can't always be sure what criteria our project-mates will use if and when we have to bum through a few projects for whatever reason, we might realize it is in our self-interest. Maybe then they'd understand that if we divest the decision making to a third party teacher - one that we all vote on to be head of bum-assistance, that might mitigate the arbitrary criteria problem - maybe then it wouldn't feel like being 'forced' but more like its a just a way of doing things that sometimes we don't like but on the whole is for the best. Especially if we remind people that if random events could mean anybody gets kicked out of school (including yourself and your family) that means less people are in school, which means less project-mates in the future which means more work to achieve the same results - which in practice leads to worse results...maybe they'd be less inclined to feel it was forcible.

Sure, but that's all different than "debunking myths" and calling people pathological.

There's plenty of carrot in the tax system, it's just some people only think about the stick. And the 'force' is the same 'force' applied to people that are 'forced' to drive on the right side of the road, pass a test before being allowed to drive, restricting alcohol, tobacco and firearm distribution and so on.

I feel differently on the matter when we're talking about how my money is being spent.

Well, we've seen what life is like with little to no state welfare - its hell for most people.

Again, most people? I guess I'm not sure what you're referencing. How far back are you going?

Well actually it does, that's why averages are used, after all. To show the norm, not highlight the outliers. Is there something wrong about selling resources for liquid capital? I thought you were pro-capitalism?

No, I don't blame the guy for capitalizing on that opportunity. That was in response to the question of the "payments being too high" in welfare; I've wondered why all those extra food stamps were around if the people getting them weren't using them for food (this was a while ago, there's actually debit cards now - I've only had one guy try to sell me a card, but that didn't even make any sense).

Well yes, and that's kind of the problem. There are some groups who need help who aren't as popular as others. Relying on private crowd funding can result in groups who are forgotten, ignored or shunned landing in even more desperate situations. As has, historically, been the case and was the very reason welfare situations came into being.

So take Catholics not wanting to support abortion for moral reasons as an example. If they don't want their money going to Planned Parenthood, then I think it's wrong to use the government to force them into it.

How much would you give to social security charities every year? $200? $800? $2,000? This money goes towards the retired, the disabled, the children of the aforementioned etc.

How much money would give towards helping people in need of medical care? $200? $800? $2,000?

How much to the needy - the poor? $50? $300? $2,000?

What do you think the average would be?

If you were earning $60,000 would you give twice as much? Do you think people on average would?

How much time would you spend ensuring the charities you give to are spending effectively? How would you know? How would you be sure the people receiving your generosity truly deserved it and weren't just bumming off you? How much time would you spend ensuring your generosity was being evenly distributed amongst those that need it? How would you learn this? Would you give to many small charities which may be less efficient spending due to larger relative staff overheads, smaller negotiating power to get good deals - or would you go for larger groups who are less focussed but in some ways more efficient - increasing the chances of missing certain groups - but also losing some efficiency on increased fund-raising/marketing efforts to maintain their large size? How do you balance between them? How often would you review your charitable distributions?

An easy solution is to just go through my parish... that's open-book and supports all kinds of different programs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Modulous, posted 01-17-2017 2:55 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-18-2017 3:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 48 by xongsmith, posted 01-18-2017 3:55 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 49 by Modulous, posted 01-18-2017 4:13 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 50 by nwr, posted 01-18-2017 5:02 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 59 by Theodoric, posted 01-31-2017 10:39 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 61 by dwise1, posted 01-31-2017 11:50 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 47 of 70 (797364)
01-18-2017 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
01-18-2017 3:08 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
So take Catholics not wanting to support abortion for moral reasons as an example. If they don't want their money going to Planned Parenthood, then I think it's wrong to use the government to force them into it.

It's like taxing creationists and then funding science education. Or it would be if the government funded abortions in any way whatsoever.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-18-2017 3:08 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1825
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(3)
Message 48 of 70 (797365)
01-18-2017 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
01-18-2017 3:08 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
New Cat's Eye proclaims:

I feel differently on the matter when we're talking about how my money is being spent.

I think you & I have a VERY DIFFERENT definition of what's "my money".


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7537
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 49 of 70 (797367)
01-18-2017 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
01-18-2017 3:08 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
Most people? Really?

Yes, really. According to this for example in the last 3 months of 2011 some 151,014,000 Americans claimed government benefits, or 49% of the country. It seems likely that over the course of a lifetime rather than a quarter - that number would be over 50%

So, some subset of people did not want to help another subset of people. And the answer to that was to force them by government.

Yes, mandated by the government. Forced, in the same way public businesses are forced to serve black people and gay people and provide access to disabled people and employ Jewish people. They weren't doing it on their own and people were suffering and dying.

I feel differently on the matter when we're talking about how my money is being spent.

Everybody does, and history has proven putting it into purely private domain results in bad outcomes. We should probably institute some kind of voting system on who we divest the responsibility to or something.

Again, most people? I guess I'm not sure what you're referencing. How far back are you going?

Yes, most people. 60 years and beyond makes the case quite clear.

I've wondered why all those extra food stamps were around if the people getting them weren't using them for food

It is possible to live on less that an optimal diet for some time - even if we assume the food stamps were perfectly optimized. They can even opt to not feed their dependents properly, or rob elderly people etc.

So take Catholics not wanting to support abortion for moral reasons as an example. If they don't want their money going to Planned Parenthood, then I think it's wrong to use the government to force them into it.

Yes, I think you covered that already. But then, you missed the point about unpopular groups like gays, blacks, Jews, Muslims etc being significantly disadvantaged as a result of purely privatised charity. Some Jewish people might not want to fund mixed sex schools. Some atheists might balk at paying for church repairs, some gays may find it unpleasant that they have to contribute to public defenders for perpetrators of hate crimes, pacifists may protest at contributing towards the military, cyclists may feel it unfair they pay towards repairing roads primarily damaged by heavy goods vehicles....

We can either compromise so that we can have the programs we want by permitting programs we might not like or we can throw the unpopular groups to the dogs - sometimes to detriment of society as a whole.

quote:
no American woman should be denied access to family planning assistance because of her economic condition

Screw poor people, right? You got yours.

An easy solution is to just go through my parish... that's open-book and supports all kinds of different programs.

You seem to have avoided many of the key questions.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5544
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(4)
Message 50 of 70 (797368)
01-18-2017 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
01-18-2017 3:08 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
Well, damn.

When you said you were a born again catholic, I didn't realize that you were a born again worshiper of your lord and savior Ayn Rand.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10126
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 51 of 70 (797372)
01-19-2017 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
01-17-2017 2:52 PM


Re: Never say farewell to welfare
Social safety nets are necessary...without them, people could lose their homes, become homeless...lose their medicines and get sick...all unforeseen perils.

I agree with your sentiment, but I disagree with you slightly in the details.

Those possible outcomes you list are not unforeseen perils and that is rather the point. An efficient capitalist system requires that businesses be able to shrink and grow, or blossom or die in response to market forces. Yet people cannot be retrained and/or redeployed with the same rapidity. Unemployment and other policies are readily viewed as insurance systems, and like all insurance, those policies rely on group participation.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


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ringo
Member
Posts: 13987
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 52 of 70 (797385)
01-19-2017 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by New Cat's Eye
01-17-2017 7:37 AM


New Cat's Eye writes:

I don't think I'm capable of effectively communicating with you.


Maybe a public school education would have made you a better communicator.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2017 7:37 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19318
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 53 of 70 (797391)
01-19-2017 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
01-16-2017 2:10 PM


Re: Don't Feel Demonized
I probably am missing the point. Why are you equating capitalists to patholical people?

Evidently you are, because I am not. What is pathological is those who take it to extremes, not the average person, and certainly not those that treat workers justly and pay fair wages. Like the difference between a person with a house full of cats compared to a person with one or two cats. One is pathological the other is not.

Are you failing to recognize that, while capitalism doesn't drive public spending on welfare, that many capitalists do a lot privately to help a lot of people?

Irrelevant. There are still people left out, so the generous capitalists are not the answer.

And they could do more by helping ensure workers are treated justly and paid fair wages.

Walamart is a case in point, Alice Walton wants to build an Art Museum, but they pay starvation wages to their workers.

I knew you'd say that. Perhaps your argument really is disgusting. Demonizing people with different opinions is pretty awful.

Curiously, I am at a total loss at how you equate my arguments with demonizing you. The article is about how typical conservative talking points are actually false myths. That's reality, not demonizing.

You also contradict yourself:

quote:
And furthermore, half of all food stamp recipients are children. More than 82% of all food stamp money goes to households that include children, elderly people, or people with disabilities.These are people who legally or physically cannot work and live at the mercy of the system.

What the data shows is that most people on various welfare programs ARE working, sometimes 2 or 3 jobs, but the PAY is not enough to live on and they qualify for benefits because their income is low.

Except, that is not a contradiction when working people get food stamps and other aid assistance (housing, medicaid, etc) and work 2 or 3 jobs and have kids and parents to support. The family gets the aid, not just the working member.

... bums, and by bum I don't mean "homeless person", I mean like bumming a cigarette, or not contributing to a group project.

Perhaps a better phrase would be slackers, less demonizing iykwim.

A better approach for the use of force, ...

Who is using force?

... realize the benefits that contributors will receive if they capitalize on the reward they'll get even despite the bum not doing anything. I guess; more carrot, less stick.

And what about the benefits everyone will realize with increased consumption of goods by people with money to spend?

You do realize, don't you, that fewer workers are needed for production now than were needed 10 years ago? That automation will continue to cut into the number of people needed to complete tasks?

You do realize that there are now more people looking for good paying jobs than there are jobs available, that a lot of people are underemployed because they cannot find work at the same level they had 10 years ago (before the bank fiasco)?

For example, the mythological "welfare queen"... I've seen and talked with people like that around where I live. Your argument that "nuh-uh, the corporations are the real welfare queens" rings hallow and doesn't negate the people that I've met.

How many have you talked to, and how many are there in your area getting benefits? Your argument is anecdotal and does not represents a full accounting of the numbers.

Please note that Taq in Message 9 said:

quote:
I have also heard many politicians spreading the myth that there is rampant welfare fraud. The truth of the matter is that outright fraud is very rare. A quick google search turned up some figures for food stamps:

"The U.S. Department of Agriculture, which administers the food stamps program, said 3.8 percent of benefits were paid in error in 2011, according to a factcheck done by PolitiFact Texas in June 2013. The error rate covers both overpayments, including fraud, as well as underpayments. Caseworker mistakes, rather than fraud, were the primary cause."
http://www.politifact.com/...cents-every-1-spent-four-govern

3.8% of benefits are paid in error, and this includes all errors, from clerical mistakes to outright fraud. Therefore, fraud probably makes up about 1% of the budget assigned for food stamps.

Conservatives like to vilify the other 99% of welfare programs based on that 1% fraud. That's sickening, and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.


He might have said "demonize" rather than "vilify", but I guess he is talking about you there.

Or, that welfare payments are too high... Talking about the cost of the average benefit per person does nothing to negate my experience with the guy I met who was selling stacks of food stamps outside the grocery store at half price so he could convert them into cash money.

ROFLOL. Don't you know that paper "food stamps" books are no longer used, but that you get something like a debit-card to use?

quote:
Check Your EBT Balance :

SNAP and Cash Account
Transaction History
Change Your PIN
Report Card Lost or Damaged


So I guess your anecdotal is ~30 years out of date.

Personally, I prefer to make my own decisions on how my money goes to help people, rather than throwing it into a tax-pool and letting other people decide how to use it. I'm a capitalist who does like to help people, and I'm not pathological nor psychopathic. I try not to let my personal beliefs get in the way of business, but socially I'm very generous and considerate. So I'm most likely not going support government welfare programs that much, but that doesn't really reflect my character.

So you pay a minimum living wage and provide full benefits for your worers, bravo ... or is it because you want to decide who doesn't get the benefits you give others?

What do you want to do about the people that don't pay a living wage for 40 hours of work per week? The ones that cause people filing for benefits to provide basic food, home and health for their family while they pocket the difference in pay?

We pay for these cost one way or another, so what is your solution? Waiting for benefactors to step up is not working.

And for you to demonize your opponents as pathological people is just wrong. Plus, it's totally ruining your argument.

And for you to demonize those seeking benefits as lazy slackers (bums) is just wrong. Plus, it's totally ruining your argument ... especially when you use out of date anecdotal opinions instead of facts.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19318
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 54 of 70 (797392)
01-19-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by caffeine
01-16-2017 4:34 PM


Re: Captalism selects for (rewards) psycopathy?
Since the 1980s there has been a clear and unmistakable trend throughout the Western world for a rolling back of the welfare state. I am not claiming that this is a good thing, I'm just struggling to understand how it is that you're seeing the opposite?

I look at long term gains. Two steps forward, one step back.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by caffeine, posted 01-16-2017 4:34 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19318
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 55 of 70 (797393)
01-19-2017 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by New Cat's Eye
01-16-2017 4:08 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
I don't have any kids, but I've never been to a public school. And I know that my private school education was better than the public ones around.

So you've been privileged.

This makes your demonizing some people as bums clearer, perhaps you feel entitled to better treatment?

Your anecdotal example of one person slacking while others do the work does not include whether or not they are always slackers, nor whether their lack of activity is due to some other factor, like not knowing what to do.

I'm not saying that the public options shouldn't exist, I just don't like being demonized for having the opinion of not wanting to be forced into them.

Who is saying you are? It seems to me that you are seeing a lot of invisible demons. If someone says that behavior "A" is bad, and you say you are being demonized, then that says to me that you are saying the shoe fits.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 56 of 70 (797395)
01-19-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by RAZD
01-19-2017 12:40 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
RAZD.responding to Cats Eye writes:

So you've been privileged.

This makes your demonizing some people as bums clearer, perhaps you feel entitled to better treatment?

I must confess that at times I have felt entitled...much like Cats Eye. My counselor says that entitlement is a hallmark signature among problem gamblers, if that counts as any excuse.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19318
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 57 of 70 (798145)
01-31-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
01-19-2017 1:12 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
I must confess that at times I have felt entitled...much like Cats Eye. My counselor says that entitlement is a hallmark signature among problem gamblers, if that counts as any excuse.

I was at an action meeting for SURJ (Showing Up For Justice) last week and attended a workshop on "Class" and how "class" is defined by race, by income and by cultural identity as part of the institutionalized racism and classism. How distinctions by economic level parallel those of race, but race ends up lower in the economic class than whites. It was about privilege and assumed entitlements, and how to break those down without stigmatizing other people. Example given was stigmatizing\demonizing Trump supporters as low IQ gap tooth hillbillies living in trailer parks.

The privilege of going to a good school, whether private or pubic, due to the neighborhoods they are in or the students are in, how a better education leads to more privilege and a greater sense of earning an entitlement to more -- going to college and grad school. How getting a good paying job was part of your privilege, your education, your class, your parents class, all in a feedback system that divides people into different classes and reinforces the system.

We each had to tell our story to show where privilege came in and we benefited from it. My dad grew up on a farm, and the GI bill put him through university. My mother came from privilege through the depression as her father worked for the phone company. Both my parents were PhDs. In my junior year in high school I took a statewide math test given in two 4 hour sessions and placed in the top 10% statewide,. That, together with my SAT scores got me into Duke, paid for by my parents, my graduation from Duke got me a free-ride into Grad school, and then the jobs started falling my way, basically getting hired for every job I applied for. I was easily in the upper middle class income bracket and then changed career, starting over at base pay, which at that time was lower middle class for a family of 3. I am now retired with sufficient income from investments to live comfortably.

My counselor says that entitlement is a hallmark signature among problem gamblers ...

I don't think that only applies to addicts in general or gamblers in particular. I think that many CEOs think they are entitled to ever increasing riches, stealing from the poor ... but then they may be addicted to that greed.

So one way to counteract this systematic classism is by leveling the playing field: free college, universal healthcare, laws about equal pay for work of equal value, minimum living wage, etc.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 58 of 70 (798197)
01-31-2017 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
01-16-2017 2:10 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
Personally, I prefer to make my own decisions on how my money goes to help people, rather than throwing it into a tax-pool and letting other people decide how to use it.

But a modern society cannot exist like that. How would you get to work? How would you know food you bought was safe to eat? You may be generous, but most people are assholes and not generous. SO fuck everyone else, because you got yours?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 59 of 70 (798198)
01-31-2017 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
01-18-2017 3:08 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
No government money is used to fund abortions. That would be illegal.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-18-2017 3:08 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 60 of 70 (798199)
01-31-2017 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
01-16-2017 2:10 PM


Re: Don't Demonize
Talking about the cost of the average benefit per person does nothing to negate my experience with the guy I met who was selling stacks of food stamps outside the grocery store at half price so he could convert them into cash money.

As I remember you are in your mid-thirties? Food Stamps have not been around since about 1998, so this is something that happened when you were a teenager or younger? Or are you lying?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


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