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Author Topic:   Science proves that the tomb of Jesus (Christ ?)and James the Just have been found.
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 91 of 110 (824126)
11-22-2017 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 5:19 PM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
What does your post have to do with anything I posted?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 5:19 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 10:56 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 92 of 110 (824129)
11-22-2017 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Coyote
11-22-2017 10:07 PM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
I'm saying that there are real problems with science at large.

And the fact that many scientists can't even see the multiple scientific methods that have been vigorously at play (like the patina issue and the multi year courtroom drama) in the James Ossuary issue speaks volumes.

Ignorance isn't going to stop me from telling the truth.

Heck, I had a great interest in the world learning more about James LONG BEFORE THIS OSSUARY DISCOVERY.

It was a good discovery, but people claimed the BROTHER OF JESUS part of the inscription was a forgery.

It was proven to be authentic using science.

Then people claimed that the authentic "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" wasn't part of the Talpiot Tomb (where a Jesus, son of Joseph was buried).

The scientific process proved that there was a very unique and precise chemical composition (due to soil filling the Talpiot Tomb) in both the Tomb and the specific James Ossuary.

2 for 2.

(The DNA might not matter much, except if one wants to know if the Mary is related to Jesus. Better to know than not, but I sure wish the other Ossuaries had DNA that wasn't completely ruined)

(The patina was almost ruined by bleach too)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Coyote, posted 11-22-2017 10:07 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
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Posts: 1851
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 93 of 110 (824138)
11-23-2017 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 10:56 PM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
To me this one is always funny when it's done on the Interwebs.

quote:
I'm saying that there are real problems with science at large.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 10:56 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 94 of 110 (824142)
11-23-2017 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 10:56 PM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
Ignorance isn't going to stop me from telling the truth.
But how do we know what the truth is? What makes one guys truth another guys redaction? What makes the real truth hidden in suppressed documents while the status quo of the majority culture is wrong? What makes one world view any truer than another?

And where do we look for this elusive truth? What sources do we explore? What books do we read and what books do we reject?

I trust my mind, but I also trust my heart and my intuition.

Critics may say I am biased as to what I will find.

Are they right?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 10:56 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 11-23-2017 10:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 110 (824144)
11-23-2017 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Pressie
11-23-2017 6:25 AM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
quote:

To me this one is always funny when it's done on the Interwebs.

"I'm saying that there are real problems with science at large."


Carl Sagan said that the suppression of unpopular truths might be typical in religion and politics, but it has no place in the endeavor of science.

So I don't find it funny to find out that there is a selection bias among scientists when it comes to publishing (negative) results.

It seems to have resulted in dangerous treatments being made to look not so dangerous.

Again, not funny.

But it shows that there can be a bias in publication and exposure which translates into flawed knowledge.

There is a deficiency of knowledge and it can, at times, be dangerous.

It is hard to pay attention to something vitally important when it isn't published due to bias.

This can explain why the scientific tests, regarding the James Ossuary & Talpiot Tomb, don't seem to be recognized as scientific. People seem to be choosing to see what they want to see (even scientists will fail to see the "science" in the story though it is all over it if one knows the details).

I have witness it multiple times on this thread alone.

And even by scientists themselves (though by no means limited to them).

Amazing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Pressie, posted 11-23-2017 6:25 AM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 96 of 110 (824145)
11-23-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by LamarkNewAge
11-23-2017 9:50 AM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
True believers in any religion have no business doing science, or even talking about science.

Their bias leads them to do the exact opposite of what science does.

Examples: the young earth and global flood during historic times beliefs.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-23-2017 9:50 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by kbertsche, posted 12-03-2017 3:25 AM Coyote has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 97 of 110 (824146)
11-23-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
11-23-2017 9:36 AM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
Phat writes:

I trust my mind, but I also trust my heart and my intuition.

Critics may say I am biased as to what I will find.

Are they right?


Yes.

Anybody can be biased. That's why we invented objectivity.

If you're interested in "truth" at all, you have to listen when people point out your biases, not take it as an insult.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 11-23-2017 9:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 110 (824714)
12-02-2017 4:15 PM


A ray of sunshine (new James discovery is a semi-hot story December 2017
I put this search term into google (news tab):

james brother discovery text scholar

Look what was found

quote:

(0.40 seconds)

Search Results

Story image for james brother discovery text scholar from Daily Mail

Heretical Greek text of 'Jesus' secret teachings to his brother James ...

Daily Mail-Dec 1, 2017

Heretical Greek text of 'Jesus' secret teachings to his brother James' is discovered by biblical scholars in Oxford after being lost for 1,600 years ... "This new discovery is significant in part because it demonstrates that Christians were still reading and studying extra-canonical writings long after Christian ...

Heretical text of secret teachings of Jesus lost for 1500 years ...
The Independent-Dec 1, 2017

Ancient copy of Jesus's secret papyrus teachings to his brother ...
International Business Times UK-Dec 1, 2017

1500-YO Heretical 'First Apocalypse of James' Text Copy Found ...
Christian Post-Dec 1, 2017

First Copy of Jesus's Secret Writings to His Brother Recovered From ...
Highly Cited-Newsweek-Dec 1, 2017

Apocalypse of James: Lost original Greek text of banned Bible book ...
Highly Cited-NEWS.com.au-Nov 30, 2017

Copy of 'Jesus' secret revelations to his brother' discovered by ...

Science Daily-Nov 30, 2017

But earlier this year, UT Austin religious studies scholars Geoffrey Smith and Brent Landau added to the list with their discovery of several fifth- or sixth-century Greek fragments of the First Apocalypse of James, which was thought to have been preserved only in its Coptic translations until now. "To say that ...


It is an extant Greek text, of something that we already had in Coptic (the Greek text itself is earlier) . But the "paper-copy" chronologically is LATER, than the Coptic "paper", as far as the actual age of the copy.

Old text.

Newer "paper" and ink.

A new copy.

But, it is significant because it offers us hope that other, more important earlier documents (like the Gospel of the Hebrews) will be found to have been copied and studied .

And Egypt offers hope.

LOOK at this issue

quote:

The lost languages of Egypt: Hi-tech cameras help archaeologists find ancient works hidden in monastery parchment in discovery hailed as a 'new golden age'
Scientists have found a series of ancient works using new imaging techniques
The method allows experts to see text that has been scrubbed off of parchment
Scripts found include documents written in extremely rare languages
The earliest copies of texts from Greek physician Hippocrates were also found

By Harry Pettit For Mailonline

Published: 05:11 EST, 28 August 2017 | Updated: 12:22 EST, 28 August 2017

Ancient works hidden underneath monastery scriptures have been uncovered using imaging technology that pieced together words originally scrubbed off.

The team found a series of lost texts using a method that allows scientists to restore ancient documents that were written over long ago to save on expensive parchment.

The discoveries at Saint Catherine's monastery on the Sinai peninsula, Egypt, signal a 'new golden age of discovery', the scientists behind the research said.

Scroll down for video

Other lost ancient texts could be revealed using the new technique, which involves taking pictures of parchment from several angles and using different parts of the light spectrum.

Among several new texts discovered by researchers from the Early Manuscripts Electronic Library in California were documents written in rare languages, the Times reports.

These include Caucasian Albanian, which had only been known from scattered stone inscriptions until now.

Three ancient Greek medical texts that were previously unknown to scholars were also revealed, as well as the earliest copies of some texts from famed Greek physician Hippocrates.

(much more text in article)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...guages-Egyptian-monastery.html


A very important technique that could offer earth shaking (no stretch and this could be BiG - eventually) discoveries.

The web page also has nice maps, videos, and sidebars.

A side bar

quote:

HOW DID THEY DO IT?

Parchment was once extremely valuable, meaning it was often reused.

Monks commonly wrote copies of the Bible on top of old texts, meaning many ancient texts have been lost.

But the researchers say that long lost documents, such as those written by ancient philosopher Aristotle, could now be rediscovered on texts in libraries across the world using their technique.

They used photographs taken from a number of angles and using different parts of the light spectrum to reveal traces of ink left by early scribes before the text was washed off.

Images of the parchment are then combined using computer algorithms to highlight the text beneath.


This is the oldest continually running monastery in the world. Lots of erased texts, so hopefully we can find some really important stuff (especially the from the more-important Early Christian Alexandrian Period of the first few centuries of the common era. Alexandria is not in a climate where texts are preserved, unfortunately)

But back to the James discovery (hot off the NEWSWEEK press).

quote:

First Copy of Jesus’s Secret Writings to His Brother Recovered From Antiquity in Original Greek

By Kastalia Medrano On 11/30/17 at 5:33 PM

....

"This new discovery is significant in part because it demonstrates that Christians were still reading and studying extra-canonical writings long after Christian leaders deemed them heretical," Geoffrey Smith, an assistant professor of religious studies at The University of Texas at Austin and one of the two scholars who made the discovery, told Newsweek via email.

Smith and fellow religious scholar Brent Landau announced the discovery at the Society of Biblical Literature Annual Meeting in Boston. The heretical Christian writings describe Jesus teaching his brother James, in secret, about future events, including James’s own death. As Smith explained in the UT Austin press release, writings that added to or changed the existing New Testament in any way were forbidden.

"Jesus tells his brother James that though they are both going to die violently, death is not something to be feared," Landau, a lecturer at the UT Austin Department of Religious Studies, told Newsweek over email. "All James needs is to remember the passwords that his brother has taught him, so that he can escape from the clutches of the archons, a set of demonic beings guarding the material world."

Landau explained in a release that the scribe separated the majority of the text using "mid-dots," which broke words down into individual syllables. That was not a common practice at the time; the exception would be in educational contexts, which is why Smith and Landau believed the text was a teaching tool.

"To say that we were excited once we realized what we'd found is an understatement," Smith said in a release. "We never suspected that Greek fragments of the First Apocalypse of James survived from antiquity. But there they were, right in front of us."

http://www.newsweek.com/...d-antiquity-original-greek-727815


Let us hope this is a harbinger of what is to come.

The tip of the iceberg?

I hope so because I am wondering just what was in the "Gospel According to the Hebrews".

Harnack dated it to 65-100 C.E. and the Papias testimony seems to back that early dating up.

(Papias' reference has been redated to 110 A.D. by several scholars and it should be known that his writings were dated around 140 during the time of Adolf Harnack)

I am wondering if the Egyptian Gospel of the Hebrews should be seen as separate from the Gospel of the Nazarenes (the latter is seen as a translation from Greek Matthew into Hebrew/Aramaic while the former is seen as a Greek text that perhaps had sources that largely came from a somewhat different orbit than Matthew) or will the two be seen as part of a larger text?

I want to get some answers already.


    
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1424
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 99 of 110 (824741)
12-03-2017 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Coyote
11-23-2017 10:45 AM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
Coyote writes:

True believers in any religion have no business doing science, or even talking about science.
Their bias leads them to do the exact opposite of what science does.


You do realize, don't you, that most of the developers of modern science were strong religious believers?
(Egs. Galileo, Kepler, Bacon, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Maxwell, ...)

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Coyote, posted 11-23-2017 10:45 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Coyote, posted 12-03-2017 10:14 AM kbertsche has not yet responded
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 100 of 110 (824747)
12-03-2017 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by kbertsche
12-03-2017 3:25 AM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
You do realize, don't you, that most of the developers of modern science were strong religious believers?
(Egs. Galileo, Kepler, Bacon, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Maxwell, ...)

Of course. But they were able to separate their religious beliefs from the science they were doing.

Our "true believer" creationists are unable to do so, and thus disqualify themselves from doing science. In reality they are doing the exact opposite of science.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by kbertsche, posted 12-03-2017 3:25 AM kbertsche has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 101 of 110 (824768)
12-03-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by kbertsche
12-03-2017 3:25 AM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
kbertsche writes:

You do realize, don't you, that most of the developers of modern science were strong religious believers?
(Egs. Galileo, Kepler, Bacon, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Maxwell, ...)


They were products of their societies. They were probably racists and sexists and royalists too. And they were not infallible in any of their conclusions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by kbertsche, posted 12-03-2017 3:25 AM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by kbertsche, posted 12-03-2017 5:22 PM ringo has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1358
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 102 of 110 (824769)
12-03-2017 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by LamarkNewAge
11-23-2017 9:50 AM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
This can explain why the scientific tests, regarding the James Ossuary & Talpiot Tomb, don't seem to be recognized as scientific. People seem to be choosing to see what they want to see (even scientists will fail to see the "science" in the story though it is all over it if one knows the details).

I have witness it multiple times on this thread alone.

I can't see that anyone on this thread has questioned the validity of the science involved in the of the patina. As far as I can see the only mention of it that wasn't you was by me. I wrote:

quote:
don't know anything about the science of analysing this sort of thing, so have no intelligent comment there.

The point is that this is only supposed to establish that this specific ossuary comes from this specific tomb. If that's true, it doesn't establish a lot else.

No one has questioned the science presented; only the unwarranted conclusions you're trying to draw from it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-23-2017 9:50 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1424
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 103 of 110 (824786)
12-03-2017 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
12-03-2017 1:35 PM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
ringo writes:


They were products of their societies.


It is natural to expect that the religious leanings of the early scientists was simply a reflection of their society. But this is wrong.

As historian of science Ian Barbour wrote:

quote:

Without belittling advances that occurred elsewhere, one can say that seventeenth-century England was the turning point in the history of science, and that the Puritans were its chief agents. Seven out of ten members of the Royal Society were Puritans--a ratio far out of proportion to the population as a whole; most of the virtuosi were active churchmen, and many of the clergy encouraged or themselves took part in scientific pursuits.


Ian G. Barbour, Issues in Science and Religion (Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, 1966), 48.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 12-03-2017 1:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 3:53 AM kbertsche has not yet responded
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 10:47 AM kbertsche has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 104 of 110 (824827)
12-04-2017 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by kbertsche
12-03-2017 5:22 PM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
Kb writes:

It is natural to expect that the religious leanings of the early scientists was simply a reflection of their society. But this is wrong.

It's not wrong, pretty much everybody in 17th century England was a believer - it was almost impossible not to be.

The science that the early scientists played with was not a challenge to religion so there was no difficulty with it - until it contradicted areas of belief and we all know what happened then.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 105 of 110 (824842)
12-04-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by kbertsche
12-03-2017 5:22 PM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
kbertsche writes:

It is natural to expect that the religious leanings of the early scientists was simply a reflection of their society. But this is wrong.
As historian of science Ian Barbour wrote....


Your own quote doesn't show that it's wrong.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by kbertsche, posted 12-03-2017 5:22 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by kbertsche, posted 12-04-2017 1:13 PM ringo has responded

  
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