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Author Topic:   A good summary of so called human evolution.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5246
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 31 of 184 (797375)
01-19-2017 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Pressie
01-19-2017 4:08 AM


Re: feed the trolls
Pressie writes:

Not really. New lurkers come here all the time.

They therefore need to have the trolls pointed out to them quickly.

Btw, the majority of the lurkers are likely to be robots, not people.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Stile, posted 01-19-2017 1:45 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3044
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 32 of 184 (797398)
01-19-2017 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Tangle
01-19-2017 7:23 AM


Re: feed the trolls
Tangle writes:

Btw, the majority of the lurkers are likely to be robots, not people.

Damnit. There goes my innocence. Right down the drain of education.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2017 7:23 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 33 of 184 (797400)
01-19-2017 2:39 PM


Well, maybe we should get mike's opinion on this? Mikey, as the troll in question do you think we should (a) mock you (b) ignore you? Or do you think that's a personal decision that should be left up to the individual?
Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by herebedragons, posted 01-19-2017 2:56 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1417
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 34 of 184 (797402)
01-19-2017 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dr Adequate
01-19-2017 2:39 PM


Mikey, as the troll in question do you think we should (a) mock you (b) ignore you?

Or... (c) Mikey could participate in the threads he starts and respond to the rebuttals.

** but I guess if he did that, he wouldn't be a troll so the question would be moot anyway.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-19-2017 2:39 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10123
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 35 of 184 (797406)
01-20-2017 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by dwise1
01-19-2017 12:43 AM


Re: feed the trolls
Uh, sorry, but I do believe that the 2016 US Presidential elections has overwhelmingly disproven the ability of any group of people to see and recognized stupidity even when it's staring them straight in the face.

Do you believe you could have convinced that group of Trump voters to change their mind with a screenful or two of prose?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 01-20-2017 11:00 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1360
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.7


(7)
Message 36 of 184 (797413)
01-20-2017 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
01-15-2017 3:59 PM


The habiline problem
Homo habilis - there is a growing consensus amongst most paleoanthropologists that this category actually includes bits and pieces of various other types - such as Australopithecus and Homo erectus. It is therefore an 'invalid taxon'. That is, it never existed as such.

When you think about, this particular case is actually rather good evidence for evolution.

There is by no means yet a consensus that H. habilis should be thrown out, though it is a viewpoint increasing in popularity. Does this mean, as the OP implies, that habilines do not belong in the human evolutionary story. Not at all, there is still a consensus that some of these fossils are either on, or very close to, our ancestral line.

What's happened is that our fossil collections have grown. When you have very few fossils to work with; it's relatively easy to divide them typologically. This is an australopithecine, this is H. habilis; this is H. erectus. As we uncover and study more and more fossils, however, we fill in the gaps and our picture becomes more fine-grained. This has the obvious result of blurring the lines between taxonomic units. We realise that early H. erectus specimens have considerable overlap with habilines; just as habilines have considerable overlap with australopithecines. Some researchers start to notice that there are no features diagnostic of Homo habilis[/i]; and thus question whether it's a meaningful taxon.

This is an issue for taxonomists, but not for human evolution. Doing away with the clear lines of distinction between fossil hominins is a sign that we're filling in the missing links and completing the picture. It's not a sign that there's something wrong with the story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 01-15-2017 3:59 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-20-2017 11:13 AM caffeine has not yet responded
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 37 of 184 (797432)
01-20-2017 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
01-20-2017 1:15 AM


Re: feed the trolls
NoNukes writes:

Do you believe you could have convinced that group of Trump voters to change their mind with a screenful or two of prose?


No. They can only read 140 characters at a time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 01-20-2017 1:15 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(4)
Message 38 of 184 (797434)
01-20-2017 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by caffeine
01-20-2017 8:29 AM


Re: The habiline problem
Yeah, that struck me too. It almost sounds as though they think that the fossils would disappear along with the classification, when what's actually disappeared is the last vestige of a boundary between apes and humans.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by caffeine, posted 01-20-2017 8:29 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 68 days)
Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 39 of 184 (797868)
01-28-2017 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Modulous
01-17-2017 7:06 PM


Re: feed the trolls
Modulous writes:

Being right doesn't make one look silly. Mike may be making himself look silly. I come here to primarily to practice explaining flaws in notions, this I have done. I am gratified. I have had lurkers thank me, even for rebuttals of PRATTs. This is gratifying. If Mike is gratified by my having composed and posted said rebuttals, it concerns me not. If your goal is to thwart Mike's gratification, I dare say you are in danger of failing.

To be honest I was just giving a link to what I thought was a pretty good summary that, well, sums up human evolution if we cut away all of the conjecture. There was no guarantee I would even find this version of the topic. If I only post a link which is for people to read or not read, there is an explosion of attacks against mike, but there have been many links given in favour of evolution, and when I read them I don't unleash a thousand furious rebukes against those who give those links.

Lol.

In case people are wondering, a "PRATT", is a "point refuted a thousand times" (Argumentum Ad Nauseam).

To be honest I don't really see any connection between a summary of human evolution when we look at the bare bones, pardon the pun, and making people look silly, me being a stupid spammer, etc....all I see it as is posting a link.

Seems to me, "NoNukes" simply imposed some motives upon me, then those motives were granted.

If people WANT to play the victim and throw melodramatic tantrums because I posted a link that didn't favour evolution, then I am afraid people are fighting phantom-mike.

That is to say, people are getting all bent out of shape fighting a mike that is not there and a mike that is not after them. If they re-read the messages, they will see that they are the only ones who insulted mike and came after him because they seem to have become very emotional because someone does not accept the case for human evolution.

As for mike's gratification, there was none. Here is what happened; Mike found a link that he thought pretty much summed up human evolution if folk are honest, then he posted it on EvC, knowing it wasn't meant for a debate since it was posted in links and information, then many members melodramatically and furiously signed mike's death warrant.

So here is a tautology for you; a topic posted in the links and information forum is meant as a link to information, so naturally every person that posts a link in such a forum can be made to look like a spammer-troll, when he doesn't come back to debate it, but it should be rather obvious that if he posted it there, he never intended it as a debate, so of course he wouldn't come back.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


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 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 01-17-2017 7:06 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Admin, posted 01-30-2017 7:26 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 68 days)
Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 40 of 184 (797869)
01-28-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by caffeine
01-20-2017 8:29 AM


Re: The habiline problem
What you say might work. It sound fairly reasonable but what I would say is that the same evidence would fit if we were to say that in fact the homo habilis is a collection from individuals, "either" homo, "or", not.

This is an implied logical disjunction, if we are to observe the law of the excluded middle.

If you are not with me, I refer to a true dichotomy, as expressed by the, "either/or" category of mosaic features.

In this regard, habilis could just be a phantom, there seems to be if my information is correct, few examples for that taxon. I could be wrong but that's the last I heard.

But what I am saying really is that for a transition between a pithecine and a habiline, I would not expect mosaic features of, "either" pithecine, "or" homo, but rather I would expect transitional intermediate features BETWEEN pithecine and homo. To describe it as a "bush of mosaic features" can be another way of saying "these species are a bunch of chimeras, that don't actually show a direct evolutionary transition, even though that is what evolution claims".

You can call them all, "bushes" but then at some stage, if evolution happened, you expect to see the actual transition between something evolution says became X, from P.

To further understand through illustration, you may want to read message #3 and #4 of this thread;

http://evolutionfairytale.com/forum/index.php?/topic/6687...

So as an example, I might expect rather than finding, "either" a human foot, "or" an ape/pithecine foot, something that was evolving into a human foot.

Can you show any transitional bones that show this for example?

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by caffeine, posted 01-20-2017 8:29 AM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Riggamortis, posted 01-28-2017 4:26 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 44 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-29-2017 9:34 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 5 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 41 of 184 (797871)
01-28-2017 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by mike the wiz
01-28-2017 3:57 PM


Re: The habiline problem
knowing it wasn't meant for a debate since it was posted in links and information, then many members melodramatically and furiously signed mike's death warrant.

Melodramatic alright 😂


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 01-28-2017 3:57 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by mike the wiz, posted 01-28-2017 4:36 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 68 days)
Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 42 of 184 (797872)
01-28-2017 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Riggamortis
01-28-2017 4:26 PM


Re: The habiline problem
Riggamortis writes:

Melodramatic alright

All meant in good humour. Mike might use some colour in his posts, like a lone-soldier, because you are alone it can help to make an ostentatious display, by perhaps blowing a loud trumpet. That way the balrog may pause for a moment, just enough time for you to make your escape.

At this time I feel the desire to proclaim a pigeon-chess victory.

(before Dr A's eyes bulge out of his head with rage.....I'm only jesting folks) though strictly speaking I don't depart from debate to annoy people or to be a troll, I simply favour giving my arguments/opinions then leaving it to others to dispute. Why? Simply because I've learnt how futile it can be to argue with certain types of people, when a lot of the time they just want to fight and make the whole thing personal).

I don't actually believe evolution is false to annoy you, I just can't make myself believe something I don't believe. Do you know anyone who can?

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Riggamortis, posted 01-28-2017 4:26 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-29-2017 9:28 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 01-29-2017 2:09 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 43 of 184 (797904)
01-29-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by mike the wiz
01-28-2017 4:36 PM


Re: The habiline problem
I don't actually believe evolution is false to annoy you, I just can't make myself believe something I don't believe. Do you know anyone who can?

Any creationist could do so; but as the process would involve looking at the actual evidence instead of copy-and-pasting nonsense from creationist websites, very few of them will.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by mike the wiz, posted 01-28-2017 4:36 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 44 of 184 (797906)
01-29-2017 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by mike the wiz
01-28-2017 3:57 PM


Re: The habiline problem
But what I am saying really is that for a transition between a pithecine and a habiline, I would not expect mosaic features of, "either" pithecine, "or" homo, but rather I would expect transitional intermediate features BETWEEN pithecine and homo. [...] So as an example, I might expect rather than finding, "either" a human foot, "or" an ape/pithecine foot, something that was evolving into a human foot.

So, like this then: "The assignment of OH 8 to Homo habilis is also controversial, as some believe the foot morphology is clearly Homo, while others believe it should be assigned to Australopithecus. For example, OH 8 talar morphology is "squat and foreshortened" like that of a quadruped. On the other hand, recent studies suggest that the foot exhibits morphology indicative of longitudinal arch that is more like Homo."

http://efossils.org/page/boneviewer/Homo%20habilis/OH%208


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 01-28-2017 3:57 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 45 of 184 (797930)
01-29-2017 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by mike the wiz
01-28-2017 4:36 PM


Re: The habiline problem
mike the wiz writes:

I just can't make myself believe something I don't believe.


It isn't about believing; it's about accepting reality.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by mike the wiz, posted 01-28-2017 4:36 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
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