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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Dawn Bertot
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Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 1 of 1001 (798448)
02-02-2017 3:56 PM


Simply put I would say the Atheist has no rational or logical way to formulate an actual moral or ethic, from a reality standpoint.

While it's possible for him or her to imagine or perceive such a thing, there is simply no way in reality this is possible. I can easily developed that point.

In the first place, this is not a moral it's an Instinct, any animal can avoid pain or misery. It takes no thinking process.

Secondly, since according to the Naturalistic proposition, much animal life existed before the human brain, it would follow that pain or misery and it's avoidance was not invented as a moral by the human mind, therefore not an actual moral or ethic. The lion and Bear do not share your opinion,when they are on the giving end of misery. We only discovered that it's a thing to avoid as well, for natural reasons, not ethical ones.

Thirdly, since I can get very different responses from human minds as to what constitutes a moral or immoral act, it should be immediately evident that there is no way to establish OBJECTIVELY, from a Naturalistic standpoint, what is in REALITY morally real.

Therefore, it is logically impossible for an actual ethic or moral to exist from the Atheistic standpoint, in Reality.

Dawn Bertot


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Taq, posted 02-02-2017 4:33 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 02-02-2017 4:39 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-02-2017 5:45 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 6 by Modulous, posted 02-02-2017 6:11 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 7 by frako, posted 02-02-2017 6:12 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 9 by Porosity, posted 02-02-2017 8:00 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2017 9:33 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
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Admin
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Message 2 of 1001 (798450)
02-02-2017 4:29 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals. thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Taq
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Posts: 6632
Joined: 03-06-2009
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(3)
Message 3 of 1001 (798451)
02-02-2017 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
02-02-2017 3:56 PM


Dawn Bertot writes:

Simply put I would say the Atheist has no rational or logical way to formulate an actual moral or ethic, from a reality standpoint.

It would seem to me that you are saying that there isn't a rational way to formulate an actual moral or ethic. Period. I really don't see what this has to do with atheism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 3:56 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 9:47 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 12768
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 4 of 1001 (798452)
02-02-2017 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
02-02-2017 3:56 PM


quote:

Thirdly, since I can get very different responses from human minds as to what constitutes a moral or immoral act, it should be immediately evident that there is no way to establish OBJECTIVELY, from a Naturalistic standpoint, what is in REALITY morally real.

This seems to be one of this strange arguments where the point relies on an irrelevant qualifier.

We could more truly say:

Thirdly, since I can get very different responses from human minds as to what constitutes a moral or immoral act, it should be immediately evident that there is no way to establish OBJECTIVELY what is in REALITY morally real.

So yes, Taq is right. As is surprisingly common an argument against atheistic morality is in reality just an argument against morality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 3:56 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 13 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 9:49 PM PaulK has responded

    
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 5 of 1001 (798462)
02-02-2017 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
02-02-2017 3:56 PM


Well, you go ahead and try to establish morality from a theistic standpoint, and we'll see if you can do any better.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 3:56 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 10:43 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Modulous
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Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 6 of 1001 (798463)
02-02-2017 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
02-02-2017 3:56 PM


Simply put I would say the Atheist has no rational or logical way to formulate an actual moral or ethic, from a reality standpoint.

Simply put: I disagree.

In the first place, this is not a moral it's an Instinct

When you say this what do you mean by the term 'a moral'? Why can morals not derive from an instinctual basis?

Secondly, since according to the Naturalistic proposition, much animal life existed before the human brain, it would follow that pain or misery and it's avoidance was not invented as a moral by the human mind, therefore not an actual moral or ethic.

What do you mean 'therefore not an actual moral or ethic'? I don't follow your logic. I think that's because you didn't provide it.

The lion and Bear do not share your opinion,when they are on the giving end of misery.

So? What have lions or bears to do with this discussion? You skipped all this work from your thesis.

We only discovered that it's a thing to avoid as well, for natural reasons, not ethical ones.

This seems to presuppose that ethical reasons and natural reasons are mutually incompatible. Given that is what you are trying to argue, you have a problem. Assuming your conclusion makes it easy to reach your conclusion, but it is meaningless.

Thirdly, since I can get very different responses from human minds as to what constitutes a moral or immoral act, it should be immediately evident that there is no way to establish OBJECTIVELY, from a Naturalistic standpoint, what is in REALITY morally real.

I reject the notion of an objective morality.

Therefore, it is logically impossible for an actual ethic or moral to exist from the Atheistic standpoint, in Reality.

None of your points results in this conclusion. What is 'an actual ethic' and why did you include the qualifier 'in Reality'? There is much background conception here, that you failed to include in your post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 3:56 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 9:57 PM Modulous has responded

    
frako
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Posts: 2699
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 7 of 1001 (798464)
02-02-2017 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
02-02-2017 3:56 PM


Well then why do god fearing countries on average have higher crime rates?
If you find sexuality immoral then why do god fearing places have higher teen pregnancy rates, and STD rates?
If divorce is immoral then why do atheists have the lowest divorce rates?

The lion and Bear do not share your opinion,when they are on the giving end of misery.

And yet social animals are known to show altruism.

Thirdly, since I can get very different responses from human minds as to what constitutes a moral or immoral act, it should be immediately evident that there is no way to establish OBJECTIVELY, from a Naturalistic standpoint, what is in REALITY morally real.

when you boil it down its simple any act against the community is immoral and acts for the good of the community are moral. Or at least that is what evolution selected for. Immoral communities with selfish members that acted only in their own interests died out, while communities where everyone pulled together flourished. ITs religion that has perverted this instinct and supplemented it with their flawed morality.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 3:56 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 10:04 PM frako has responded

    
JonF
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Posts: 3650
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 8 of 1001 (798467)
02-02-2017 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
02-02-2017 4:39 PM


I suspect a hidden "except for...".
This message is a reply to:
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Porosity
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Posts: 126
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 9 of 1001 (798478)
02-02-2017 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
02-02-2017 3:56 PM


Simply put I would say the Atheist has no rational or logical way to formulate an actual moral or ethic, from a reality standpoint.

I don't know what sort of alternative reality you're living in to think Atheist don't care about the well being of others and themselves.

Also, history has proven that morality is SUBJECTIVE, once upon a time it was cool to own slaves, sell your daughter as a sex slave and stone children for misbehaving.

Morality is socially driven, one culture may find it acceptable to mutilate female genitals, while another will get you ten to life in prison.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 3:56 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by JonF, posted 02-02-2017 9:15 PM Porosity has not yet responded
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 Message 18 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 10:17 PM Porosity has responded

    
JonF
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Posts: 3650
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 10 of 1001 (798486)
02-02-2017 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Porosity
02-02-2017 8:00 PM


I don't know what sort of alternative reality you're living in to think Atheist don't care about the well being of others and themselves

He didn't go that far yet. He's just implied that any morality atheists exhibit is irrational. It's the same old "rational atheists should conclude that they can do anything they want, so why aren't they rampaging and murdering and raping and pillaging?".

I regard anyone who thinks religious belief is required for moral behavior with some concern. But they are a priori wrong, atheists in general are moral. That is an observed fact, so the interesting question is "why?", not "why are you doing atheism wrong? ".


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jar
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Posts: 29032
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 11 of 1001 (798489)
02-02-2017 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by JonF
02-02-2017 9:15 PM


And conversely, why are so many theists so immoral?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 12 of 1001 (798491)
02-02-2017 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taq
02-02-2017 4:33 PM


what??????
Taq writes
It would seem to me that you are saying that there isn't a rational way to formulate an actual moral or ethic. Period. I really don't see what this has to do with atheism.

No I never said anything close to that, dont see how you got that out of what I said. It doesn't matter what I believe, for the SFH, to be unable to establish an actual moral, in reality. We will develope that for you as we go along

Dawn Bertot


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Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 13 of 1001 (798492)
02-02-2017 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
02-02-2017 4:39 PM


Paulk writes
So yes, Taq is right. As is surprisingly common an argument against atheistic morality is in reality just an argument against morality.

Don't see how that follows


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 02-02-2017 4:39 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2017 12:03 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 14 of 1001 (798493)
02-02-2017 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Modulous
02-02-2017 6:11 PM


Mod writes
When you say this what do you mean by the term 'a moral'? Why can morals not derive from an instinctual basis?

Instinct by its very nature can take no thought

What do you mean 'therefore not an actual moral or ethic'? I don't follow your logic. I think that's because you didn't provide it.

A moral is a thought concept or reasoned idea the likes of which, no more information can be added to it to make it more correct or less correct. This would be called infinite wisdom. This is what it would take for you to have an actual moral or ethic in reality.
Do you?

I reject the notion of an objective morality.

Then I was correct, as an Atheist you have no rational moral in reality

Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Modulous, posted 02-02-2017 6:11 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 02-03-2017 2:08 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 15 of 1001 (798496)
02-02-2017 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by frako
02-02-2017 6:12 PM


Frako writes
when you boil it down its simple any act against the community is immoral and acts for the good of the community are moral. Or at least that is what evolution selected for. Immoral communities with selfish members that acted only in their own interests died out, while communities where everyone pulled together flourished. ITs religion that has perverted this instinct and supplemented it with their flawed morality.

If this is the case as you state can I ask you a question
I noticed in this MONKEY video, they are in cages. Did they do something wrong? Did they commit a crime to be incarcerated, probably against thier will?

I thought slavery was wrong.

You see Frako you can't even get out of the starting gate from a rational logical standpoint. Your moral has to be consistent across all species, not just humans.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by dwise1, posted 02-03-2017 1:37 AM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 59 by frako, posted 02-03-2017 4:02 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
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