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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 631 of 1000 (805178)
04-16-2017 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by Tangle
04-16-2017 12:26 PM


The thing about the ToE is that it defines a human being.

Nope, it defines the theory of evolution.

I know it would be a terrible crime for an evo to acknowledge that I ever said anything that makes sense so I do understand your great need to contradict my extremely simple obvious point, but nevertheless here it is again:

The theory of gravity does not define human beings, nor does the science of astronomy nor the science of any other physical phenomenon, but in contrast to those other sciences, yes indeed evolution does define human beings. It says we descended from something apelike. It says we are animals, that our ancestors are animals. Some people do make a worldview out of this scientific claim.

Now I know you can find some semantic slippage in the words that will allow you to contradict this simple point in dozens of different ways, and I know you have the motivation to do just that. Nevetheless as it stands it is indeed a very very simple and true point.

Happy Easter.l

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by Tangle, posted 04-16-2017 12:26 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by jar, posted 04-16-2017 5:00 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 633 by Tangle, posted 04-16-2017 5:11 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 634 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2017 9:17 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 632 of 1000 (805179)
04-16-2017 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Faith
04-16-2017 4:50 PM


Faith writes:

It says we descended from something apelike. It says we are animals, that our ancestors are animals.

It is not the Theory of Evolution that says that but rather the Bible and reality and truth that make those facts obvious. Sure, you can find passages in the Bible that make humans special but that is only more proof that the Bible is filled with contradictions as you have been shown numerous times.

It is reality and genetics and fossils and bones and behaviors and construction and anatomy and diet and all the evidence ever found that says humans are animals, one of the primates and descended from earlier primates.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
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Posts: 4643
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 633 of 1000 (805181)
04-16-2017 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Faith
04-16-2017 4:50 PM


Faith writes:

It says we descended from something apelike. It says we are animals, that our ancestors are animals.

Yes, so much is obvious. We're made out of the same stuff.

Even without the ToE we'd still be saying that we're another animal. It's totally undeniable even by you. Your entire position is that we're an animal that god gave a soul.

Some people do make a worldview out of this scientific claim.

Who makes a world view out of this claim (fact)?

It isn't you or anyone that holds your beliefs. So who is it? Is it all those atheists like me? It's in your own head Faith. There is no such thing as an evolution world view. Your objection is purely bible related.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15929
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 634 of 1000 (805217)
04-16-2017 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Faith
04-16-2017 4:50 PM


The theory of gravity does not define human beings, nor does the science of astronomy nor the science of any other physical phenomenon, but in contrast to those other sciences, yes indeed evolution does define human beings. It says we descended from something apelike. It says we are animals, that our ancestors are animals.

But these are mere facts about us, they are not definitions. If God made a man by magic, he would still be a man, wouldn't he?

(And the fact that we are animals follows from the definition of animals, it has nothing to do with the theory of evolution as such.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 4:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 9:27 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 636 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 9:29 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 635 of 1000 (805220)
04-16-2017 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2017 9:17 PM


dup

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 636 of 1000 (805222)
04-16-2017 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2017 9:17 PM


Am I the only one here who spent years among people who liked to talk in terms of our animal nature and how we evolved this or that function and so on? I can't believe all this evasive hooha going on here.

The ToE DID change how we think about our place in the universe. We became MERE animals rather than creatures with a soul or spirit, half related to angels. The nature of animals became the basis for common thinking about our nature. We started talking in terms of how this or that spiritual type of feature "evolved" -- how it was naturally selected to further our survival in whatever conditions we might imagine.

Enough is enough.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2017 9:17 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2017 9:47 PM Faith has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15929
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 637 of 1000 (805225)
04-16-2017 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by Faith
04-16-2017 9:29 PM


Am I the only one here who spent years among people who liked to talk in terms of our animal nature and how we evolved this or that function and so on?

I am one of those people. I have said plainly and distinctly, and as recently as my last post, the one which you just read, that we are animals, descended from animals.

But this does not lead me to conclude that humans have no value, because why would it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 9:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 9:54 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 638 of 1000 (805227)
04-16-2017 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 637 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2017 9:47 PM


You're still ssying it in a way that suggests you aren't thinking of what I'm saying. Humans "having no value" is not really what I'm saying. It's more about how humanity's place in the universe was demoted.

People who think in terms of how we "evolved" this or that social or moral characteristic are putting all our human eggs in the one animal basket. If that is what you are also doing I consider that a devaluation of humanity from any kind of understanding of us as beings superior to animals, with a spirit and related capacities not possessed by animals and not something that could have come about by evolution.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 637 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2017 9:47 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2017 11:51 PM Faith has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15929
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 639 of 1000 (805234)
04-16-2017 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Faith
04-16-2017 9:54 PM


You're still ssying it in a way that suggests you aren't thinking of what I'm saying. Humans "having no value" is not really what I'm saying. It's more about how humanity's place in the universe was demoted.

Well, that's a weaker position than you and your creationist cohorts seemed to be taking. The argument appeared to be that atheists could not justify treating humans morally because an evolved human would have no value, or at least no more than any other collection of atoms.

If all you now wish to say is that the evolutionary account of origins is less flattering to your vanity than the creationist account, then yes, maybe; that's up to you. (Personally I have never seen anything that paints a more wretched picture of humanity than Calvinism, but maybe that's a matter of taste.) However, so long as the "devaluation" you speak of does not reduce our value right down to nothing, then we still have grounds to treat an evolved man morally.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 9:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 640 by Faith, posted 04-17-2017 2:58 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 640 of 1000 (805238)
04-17-2017 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 639 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2017 11:51 PM


Ah well, there is apparently no end to the ways the topic can be distorted.

No, the point remains that there are no grounds BASED ON EVOLUTION for the morality we ascribe to ourselves.

Sigh.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2017 11:51 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 641 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2017 3:01 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 642 by jar, posted 04-17-2017 7:35 AM Faith has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15929
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 641 of 1000 (805239)
04-17-2017 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Faith
04-17-2017 2:58 AM


No, the point remains that there are no grounds BASED ON EVOLUTION for the morality we ascribe to ourselves.

Everyone has agreed with that absolutely and without a moment's hesitation.

But it is not in fact the only point that you guys have been making.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Faith, posted 04-17-2017 2:58 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 642 of 1000 (805271)
04-17-2017 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Faith
04-17-2017 2:58 AM


Finally Faith you say something that is correct.
Faith writes:

No, the point remains that there are no grounds BASED ON EVOLUTION for the morality we ascribe to ourselves.

Which of course is exactly what everyone has been telling you. Neither the fact of evolution or the Theory of evolution have anything to do with morals. Morality is a human construct.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Faith, posted 04-17-2017 2:58 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 643 by Faith, posted 04-17-2017 7:36 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 643 of 1000 (805272)
04-17-2017 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 642 by jar
04-17-2017 7:35 AM


Re: Finally Faith you say something that is correct.
Funny, that's been MY point.
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Dredge
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Posts: 356
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 644 of 1000 (805332)
04-17-2017 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 622 by Tangle
04-16-2017 9:20 AM


Tangle: "The absence of anyone who thinks he's no more important than a bug is rather devastating to your argument don't you think?"

I've already mentioned the atheist who told me, "We're just grubs."  No doubt there are more atheists who think the same way.

----------------------------------------------

Tangle: "This silly idea of the ToE as a worldview is purely a creationist idea." 

Nonsense.  Read the conclusions atheist William Provine came to, based on his belief in ToE.  It shaped his entire approach to life.  Provine also said "Evolution is the greatest engine for atheism ever invented."  
There are many theists who abandoned religion as a result of believing ToE to be true.  Richard Dawkins speaks of the influence ToE has had on his worldview.  
I would imagine there are many millions of people in the world whose outlook on life has been influenced as a result of taking ToE seriously.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by Tangle, posted 04-16-2017 9:20 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by Tangle, posted 04-18-2017 3:32 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 656 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-18-2017 12:24 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 356
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 645 of 1000 (805334)
04-17-2017 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by Tangle
04-16-2017 12:26 PM


Tangle: "Admit it, the creationists obsession with the ToE is purely because it contradicts a literal analysis of your book."

I would have thought it obvious that Christian creationists are obsessed with ToE because it contradicts the Bible (after all, it is the duty of every Christian to oppose the works of the devil).   But this isn't my only objection to ToE - it offends me because it is an abuse of science and has polluted true science with useless atheism-inspired rubbish. The once-noble science of biology, for example, has been hijacked by atheists and turned into a giant propaganda tool for their theology.

Some atheists study ToE like some Christians study the Bible, which is pretty damned strange when you consider that ToE that has no practical use - however, it all makes sense when you realise that ToE serves as the basis for an atheist's quasi-religious worldview.  So creationists aren't the only ones obsessed with ToE.

But this is getting off-topic.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by Tangle, posted 04-16-2017 12:26 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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