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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 646 of 1002 (805335)
04-17-2017 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 617 by Tangle
04-16-2017 5:07 AM


You seem to have missed the point. Christians who believe in evolution also believe in the Bible, which says they are made in the image of God and are worth much more than bugs.   

On the other hand, atheists believe in evolution, and evolution implies that all life is meaningless and dispensable and that humans are worth no more than bugs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by Tangle, posted 04-16-2017 5:07 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 649 by jar, posted 04-17-2017 9:28 PM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 650 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2017 10:00 PM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 654 by Tangle, posted 04-18-2017 5:34 AM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 647 of 1002 (805336)
04-17-2017 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2017 10:51 AM


Dr. Adequate: "... I shouldn't kill people..."  

Why shouldn't you kill people?  How did you arrive at this morality?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2017 10:51 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2017 10:02 PM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 648 of 1002 (805337)
04-17-2017 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 615 by Minnemooseus
04-15-2017 8:13 PM


Re: In the moral big picture, humans or bees more important?
Minnemooseus: "I hate to advocate genocide, but leaving such up to God, I think the planet would have been a lot better off if God had eliminated Noah and family also."

If atheists are right  - that there is no Creator God and life is the result of evolution - then genocide is neither right nor wrong, because, as I've already pointed out, it doesn't matter if humans exist or don't exist.  

I've also said morality can be whatever you want it to be - for example, since you believe humanity is "a disease upon the planet", you may believe it morally acceptable to kill humans en mass in order to save the planet from "disease".  And since evolution means objective morality doesn't exist, your morality is just as valid as anyone else's.  Neither can anyone prove that your morality is wrong and their's is right.

-------------------------------------------------

Minnemooseus: "So, was God being moral in how the "flood" was executed?"  

 I don't know; I don't understand the question.

--------------------------------------------------

Minnemooseus: "I think killing a human and killing a bee are both immoral."

If atheistic evolution is true, I wonder how you came to the conclusion that killing any creature is immoral. I would conclude from ToE that neither killing a human nor killing a bee is immoral, because no life needs to exist and all life is meaningless and dispensible. Killing something that has no meaning cannot be immoral.  And if life is meaningless, then so is morality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-15-2017 8:13 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 655 by Pressie, posted 04-18-2017 6:39 AM Dredge has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 649 of 1002 (805338)
04-17-2017 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 646 by Dredge
04-17-2017 9:11 PM


Dredge writes:

On the other hand, atheists believe in evolution, and evolution implies that all life is meaningless and dispensable and that humans are worth no more than bugs.

Christians too recognize that evolution is fact, that the Biblical Creation myths are "Just So Stories" yet neither atheists or Christians think evolution implies all life is meaningless and dispensable and that humans are worth no more than bugs.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 650 of 1002 (805342)
04-17-2017 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 646 by Dredge
04-17-2017 9:11 PM


On the other hand, atheists believe in evolution, and evolution implies that all life is meaningless and dispensable and that humans are worth no more than bugs.

Are you going to try to argue for this bizarre assertion, or are you just going to recite it over and over?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by Dredge, posted 04-17-2017 9:11 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 651 of 1002 (805343)
04-17-2017 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by Dredge
04-17-2017 9:15 PM


Why shouldn't you kill people?

'Cos they don't want me to kill them.

How did you arrive at this morality?

I ignored the fatuous and wicked nonsense in the Bible and consulted my conscience instead.

Your turn. Please answer the same questions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by Dredge, posted 04-17-2017 9:15 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2017 1:53 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Tangle
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Posts: 4978
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 652 of 1002 (805355)
04-18-2017 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 644 by Dredge
04-17-2017 8:53 PM


Dredge writes:

I've already mentioned the atheist who told me, "We're just grubs." No doubt there are more atheists who think the same way.

As usual, you're being disingenuous. Did you clarify what he meant by asking him if his daughter's or mother's life was worth no more to him than a bug's? You didn't, did you? But imagine you had, what do you think his answer would be?

Nonsense. Read the conclusions atheist William Provine came to, based on his belief in ToE. It shaped his entire approach to life. Provine also said "Evolution is the greatest engine for atheism ever invented."
There are many theists who abandoned religion as a result of believing ToE to be true. Richard Dawkins speaks of the influence ToE has had on his worldview.

What has any of that got to do with a world view?

The ToE is a scientific fact. It explains how life here developed. It's no more a world view than a round earth, anti-geocentricity or old-earth geology (there isn't a new-earth geology btw). These are just facts, not world views.

These are simply sciences that contradict the primitive beliefs of a few that hold that the world is as claimed by some ancient mythology written in a book of stories. Who cares? Their fantasies are irrelevant when considering reality.

Millions more accept evolution, old earth and the earth spinning round the sun (which is just a minor star amongst trillions of others) and still hold religious beliefs. The discovery that our little star is not the centre of the universe, not that important, is very old and that we ourselves are made of the same stuff as all organisms allowed them to think realistically about their beliefs.

I would imagine there are many millions of people in the world whose outlook on life has been influenced as a result of taking ToE seriously.

That is certainly true. When Darwin published his ideas in the 19th century it shocked the Christian world. And it still offends people like you who feel the need to cling to a primitive mythology. That's just too bad, facts are facts - get over it if you can and join the real world. It has certainly changed people's view of the world - it informs a world view - it has influenced my atheism (but it didn't cause it). But it isn't a world view in its own right. Just as my acceptance of germ theory isn't a world view but it did change people's beliefs about disease and their cures.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Dredge, posted 04-17-2017 8:53 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4978
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 653 of 1002 (805356)
04-18-2017 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 645 by Dredge
04-17-2017 9:07 PM


Dredge writes:


I would have thought it obvious that Christian creationists are obsessed with ToE because it contradicts the Bible (after all, it is the duty of every Christian to oppose the works of the devil).

Satan! Yeh, well, I live in the 21st century, if you choose to live in the 16th there's not much anyone can do about it.

But this isn't my only objection to ToE - it offends me because it is an abuse of science and has polluted true science with useless atheism-inspired rubbish. The once-noble science of biology, for example, has been hijacked by atheists and turned into a giant propaganda tool for their theology.

To my knowledge atheists are quite a minority. I haven't done the maths but I would guess that Christian biologists outnumber these atheists by a considerable amount. But no doubt you can tell me how many creationist biologists there are? Any at all?

Some atheists study ToE like some Christians study the Bible,

What utter rubbish. I know many atheists, to my knowledge I'm the only one that takes the vaguest interest in evolutionary biology and even I only read anything about it when a new discovery is made that interests me. I haven't even read the book that is often claimed by people like you to be the bible of evolution - 'on the origin of species' - and I know of no one else that has. I love the idea of attending little prayer groups every Sunday and geting down on our knees chanting sections of it whilst learning others by heart. Maybe even keeling before an image of Darwin every night in abject worship. Do get a sense of proporion.

So creationists aren't the only ones obsessed with ToE.
Only in your fantasies chuck, only in your deluded madness.

But this is getting off-topic.

No, it's the ONLY topic. All the rest is a smoke screen.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Dredge, posted 04-17-2017 9:07 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4978
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 654 of 1002 (805358)
04-18-2017 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 646 by Dredge
04-17-2017 9:11 PM


Dredge writes:

You seem to have missed the point. Christians who believe in evolution also believe in the Bible, which says they are made in the image of God and are worth much more than bugs.

Jolly good for them. So what?

On the other hand, atheists believe in evolution

What makes you think that? Most atheists I know couldn't give a rats arse about evolution. Like belief in your book, it never crosses most of their minds. If they think of it at all, it's just another bit of occasionally interesting scientific knowledge.

You creationists are obsessed with the ToE, the rest of the world isn't.

Now I suspect that there is a high correlation between acceptance (not belief) in the ToE and atheism. That's to be expected; atheists tend to be rational people. But is the relationship causal - is it buggery.

and evolution implies that all life is meaningless and dispensable and that humans are worth no more than bugs.

Do you think saying that repeatedly whilst hearing every 'evolutionist' deny it is helping your case? Has anyone here ever agreed with you? Has anyone outside your little bubble said that? Have you ever asked an atheist or an 'evolutionist' whether they think even their dog's life is worth more than a bug's? Or their goldfish?

You're talking total bollox.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by Dredge, posted 04-17-2017 9:11 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 657 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 1:00 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 679 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2017 1:49 AM Tangle has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 655 of 1002 (805362)
04-18-2017 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 648 by Dredge
04-17-2017 9:21 PM


Re: In the moral big picture, humans or bees more important?
Dredge writes:

And since evolution means objective morality doesn't exist, your morality is just as valid as anyone else's. Neither can anyone prove that your morality is wrong and their's is right.

Why do you tell untruths about scientific theories?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by Dredge, posted 04-17-2017 9:21 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1556
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 656 of 1002 (805412)
04-18-2017 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by Dredge
04-17-2017 8:53 PM


Nonsense. Read the conclusions atheist William Provine came to, based on his belief in ToE. It shaped his entire approach to life. Provine also said "Evolution is the greatest engine for atheism ever invented."

I don't know who this guy is and I'm not interested enough to look him up, but I think he is completely wrong. In my own personal case, "Christianity was the greatest engine for atheism ever invented", but looking back I would probably modify that to be "religion is the greatest force for atheism ever invented."

Dredge in msg 645 writes:

Some atheists study ToE like some Christians study the Bible, which is pretty damned strange when you consider that ToE that has no practical use - however, it all makes sense when you realise that ToE serves as the basis for an atheist's quasi-religious worldview. So creationists aren't the only ones obsessed with ToE.

What total BS, but it all makes (a sort of warped) sense when you realize that Christianity has no practical use. You are just spouting nonsense about Christianity, creationism, atheism, and evolution when you have no clue about any of them.

Ignorance can be cured with education, but stupidity can only be cured by natural selection.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25864
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 657 of 1002 (805424)
04-18-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by Tangle
04-18-2017 5:34 AM


You really need to drop that straw man by now
dredge writes:

and evolution implies that all life is meaningless and dispensable and that humans are worth no more than bugs.

Do you think saying that repeatedly whilst hearing every 'evolutionist' deny it is helping your case? Has anyone here ever agreed with you? Has anyone outside your little bubble said that? Have you ever asked an atheist or an 'evolutionist' whether they think even their dog's life is worth more than a bug's? Or their goldfish?

Do you guys study to get it all so wrong? Over and over it's been said that this has nothing to do with individual relationships, feelings and valuations of your family, friends and pets, only that such valuations are of necessity subjective when your main worldview tells you that human beings are descended from animals and anything else we ascribe to ourselves has no scientific basis.

I used to be an atheist and I believed in evolution and I would say that it definitely WAS the prevailing worldview and it told me that there is no God, that there is no objective basis for morality and that all my feelings and assessments of the human condition were nothing but illusion. I believed all that, and it most definitely DID influence me. Sin was nothing of course, and my generation was really really big on "sexual freedom," which is easily rationalized by evolution. I had no ability to criticize that idea, we're just animals after all, "if it feels good do it" and all that legacy of the sicksties. I had to become a Christian to have any notion of sin. I did nevertheless strenuously object to the idea that we were merely animals anyway since I thought we are pretty noble creatures, but as with all such ideas there is no objective way to claim such a thing. And perhaps many people hold on to a traditional morality in spite of being atheists and believing in evolution but I wasn't one of them, and in any case the point here is that their morality is all subjective too. The theory of evolution, like it or not, was indeed the biggest influence toward atheism and toward the moral deterioration of society that ever before existed.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Tangle, posted 04-18-2017 5:34 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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Genomicus
Member
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 658 of 1002 (805429)
04-18-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by Faith
04-18-2017 1:00 PM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
The theory of evolution, like it or not, was indeed the biggest influence toward atheism and toward the moral deterioration of society that ever before existed.

What moral deterioration of society? How are you objectively measuring degrees of "moral deterioration" so you can make a definitive statement that culture is becoming increasingly morally deteriorated?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 1:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4978
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 659 of 1002 (805442)
04-18-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by Faith
04-18-2017 1:00 PM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Faith writes:

Do you guys study to get it all so wrong? Over and over it's been said that this has nothing to do with individual relationships, feelings and valuations of your family, friends and pets, only that such valuations are of necessity subjective when your main worldview tells you that human beings are descended from animals and anything else we ascribe to ourselves has no scientific basis.

I think you're so used to people disagreeing with you that when we don't, you miss it.

Remember us all saying that morality was not objective? We agree that morality is subjective, created by ourselves and changes over time.

Our values and how we arrive at them have nothing to do with the ToE. That's the bit you need to get over. I know you want the ToE to be an atheist's replacement for your god and bible but it ain't. Not even close. The nearest I can get to it for you is that evolution was responsible for developing our huge brain and its consciousness which allowed us to create our own values and moral systems as we subjective see fit.

I used to be an atheist and I believed in evolution and I would say that it definitely WAS the prevailing worldview and it told me that there is no God, that there is no objective basis for morality Etc.

Well, like I say, it definitely did and does influence people. But how can it possibly be a world view in the way you mean - an all encompassing theory of life, the universe and the meaning of life? Of course it isn't it's just an explanation of how species evolved. Billions of people believe in god and accept the ToE. All it does is add some corroboration to the already well understood idea that the bible is stuffed full of myths and parables.

Sin was nothing of course, and my generation was really really big on "sexual freedom," which is easily rationalized by evolution. I had no ability to criticize that idea, we're just animals after all, "if it feels good do it" and all that legacy of the sicksties. I had to become a Christian to have any notion of sin.

Sin is a silly concept of course but knowing right from wrong isn't. I might be mistaking you but by mentioning the 60s you seem to confusing sex with sin. You knew that stealing, rape, murder, lying was wrong - it's obvious that something that harms others is wrong. Maybe you were confused about things that are called sinful - like sex outside marriage - that needn't be harmful at all. God knows why you equate any of that with the ToE.

But look - if evolution hadn't been discovered we'd still know that we are composed of the same stuff as all human life and that we are virtually genetically identical to apes. You would still be forced to object to that knowledge.

I did nevertheless strenuously object to the idea that we were merely animals anyway since I thought we are pretty noble creatures, but as with all such ideas there is no objective way to claim such a thing.

Aha. But objectivity in this matter is exactly what we have. We have compared entire genomes. The degree of consciousness is our differentiator. You say goddidit, I don't.

And perhaps many people hold on to a traditional morality in spite of being atheists and believing in evolution but I wasn't one of them, and in any case the point here is that their morality is all subjective too.

Yes, yours and mine, everybody's morality is subjective - but governed by cultural norms of behaviour. Your cultural norms are more heavily influenced by your religious beliefs than mine so we differ on such things as sex with a member of my own gender and whether it's sane to own a piece of personal artillery - but on most morality issues we agree about almost everything.

The theory of evolution, like it or not, was indeed the biggest influence toward atheism and toward the moral deterioration of society that ever before existed.

I have no problem agreeing that it was a huge influence and have said so. I disgree that this qualifies it as a world view. It's just a fact of life. Most Christians are reconciled to it.

As for moral deteroration - ffs, get a life. Moral degeneracy is almost universally an obsession with other people's sexuality and sexulal behaviour. Which is at worst - harmless.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 1:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 660 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 2:47 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 676 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2017 1:42 AM Tangle has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 660 of 1002 (805446)
04-18-2017 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by Tangle
04-18-2017 1:53 PM


Remember us all saying that morality was not objective?

I didn't say that. It's debatable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Tangle, posted 04-18-2017 1:53 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by Tangle, posted 04-18-2017 3:06 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
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