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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 676 of 1002 (805657)
04-20-2017 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by Tangle
04-18-2017 1:53 PM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Tangle: "Our values and how we arrive at them have nothing to do with ToE".

That's because we aren't products of ToE.  The meaningless of life and morality implied by ToE doesn't correspond with what humans feel, because our Creator built meaning and morality into our brains and psyches.

I think it might strange that the process of evolution, which is mindless and meaningless, produces us humans, who are the opposite of mindless and who search for meaning. That does not compute.

----------------------------------------

Tangle: "it's obvious that something that harms others is wrong"

A shark, for example, doesn't know that harming others is wrong; a shark will rip the head off a baby and think nothing off it.  In contrast, you know it's wrong to harm others because God gave human beings a conscience which instinctively tells them that some things are morally wrong.  This inbuilt morality is sometimes referred to as "natural law".  

But according to ToE, life is meaningless, so harming others is meaningless and is neither right nor wrong.  

--------------------------------

 Tangle: "we are virtually genetically identical to apes".

Another evo' myth.  If we are so genetically close, why are we, in reality, vastly different creatures?  The differences between humans and apes are massive, and on all sorts of levels.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Tangle, posted 04-18-2017 1:53 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 681 by Tangle, posted 04-20-2017 2:38 AM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 677 of 1002 (805658)
04-20-2017 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 657 by Faith
04-18-2017 1:00 PM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Faith: "the sicksties"

What a fabulous word!  The so-called Enlightenment produced a cult of atheist intellectualism that started chipping away at the strong dam wall of Christainity ... the sicksties marked the final collapse of that dam and the end of Christianity as the dominant cultural force.  Evolution stepped in and became the new "theology" of entire civilizations.   Welcome to the Great Apostasy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 1:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 685 by Pressie, posted 04-20-2017 8:48 AM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 678 of 1002 (805659)
04-20-2017 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by Pressie
04-18-2017 6:39 AM


Re: In the moral big picture, humans or bees more important?
Pressie: "Why do you tell untruths about scientific theories?"

I would attempt to answer this question if I knew what you're talking about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Pressie, posted 04-18-2017 6:39 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 679 of 1002 (805660)
04-20-2017 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 654 by Tangle
04-18-2017 5:34 AM


You disagree with my claim that athesits believe in evolution.  I would imagine 99.999999% of atheists in the Western world believe that all life is a result of evolution.

It's evident that you are obsessed with ToE - why else would you daily devote your precious time to arguing online with dissenting creationists? You obviously have a quasi-religious attachment to it, and a deep-seated psychological need to believe it and protect it from infidels.  Your interest in ToE doesn't stem from a love of biology, but from the love of a theory that supposedly proves God doesn't exist.  Many atheists are in the same quasi-religious boat.  Hence, it is appropriate to refer to ToE as atheist theology.

But this is off-topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Tangle, posted 04-18-2017 5:34 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 683 by Tangle, posted 04-20-2017 3:03 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 684 by jar, posted 04-20-2017 8:23 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 680 of 1002 (805661)
04-20-2017 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 651 by Dr Adequate
04-17-2017 10:02 PM


Dr. Adequate: "Your turn,  Please answer the same questions." 

I shouldn't kill because it might land me in jail ... I used to drive taxis at night in a large city and at times I really did feel like killing some people.  

How did I arrive at this morality?  The Lord commanded, "Thou shat not kill" ... and the Lord knows best.

----------------

You say you ignored the Bible and relied on your own conscience to get your morals.  If God doesn't exist, then the morality expressed in the Bible is the morality of human beings.  How is it possible to prove that your morality is superior to the morality of those human beings whom you think wrote the Bible?

Adolf Hitler's conscience told him that it was morally good to murder six millions Jews.  You would no doubt disagree and claim that what he did was morally wrong.  How is it possible to prove that your code of morality is correct and that his is wrong?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2017 10:02 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 682 by PaulK, posted 04-20-2017 2:47 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 709 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 1:16 AM Dredge has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5046
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 681 of 1002 (805666)
04-20-2017 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 676 by Dredge
04-20-2017 1:42 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Dredge writes:

Tangle: "Our values and how we arrive at them have nothing to do with ToE".
That's because we aren't products of ToE. The meaningless of life and morality implied by ToE doesn't correspond with what humans feel, because our Creator built meaning and morality into our brains and psyches.

Make your mind up, which is it, the ToE makes us no better than bugs or we're not products of the ToE?

I think it might strange that the process of evolution, which is mindless and meaningless, produces us humans, who are the opposite of mindless and who search for meaning.

Yes, we know you find it strange. But so what?

A shark, for example, doesn't know that harming others is wrong; a shark will rip the head off a baby and think nothing off it. In contrast, you know it's wrong to harm others because God gave human beings a conscience which instinctively tells them that some things are morally wrong.

Yes, we know that this is your unfounded belief, but so what?

But according to ToE, life is meaningless, so harming others is meaningless and is neither right nor wrong.

It seems important to you to keep repeating this blatant lie - the ToE makes no value judgements. Harming others is wrong, we don't need a ficticious supernatural being to know that - we have an evolved brain.

Tangle: "we are virtually genetically identical to apes".

Another evo' myth. If we are so genetically close, why are we, in reality, vastly different creatures? The differences between humans and apes are massive, and on all sorts of levels.

The evidence for our genetic closeness to apes has nothing to do with evolution nor is it a myth. The evidence is in our genes.

quote:
The chimpanzee and another ape, the bonobo, are humans' closest living relatives. These three species look alike in many ways, both in body and behavior. But for a clear understanding of how closely they are related, scientists compare their DNA, an essential molecule that's the instruction manual for building each species. Humans and chimps share a surprising 98.8 percent of their DNA.

You don't care but here's a simple explanation.

http://www.amnh.org/...-past/dna-comparing-humans-and-chimps


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2017 1:42 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 711 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 9:46 PM Tangle has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13113
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 682 of 1002 (805667)
04-20-2017 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 680 by Dredge
04-20-2017 1:53 AM


quote:

I shouldn't kill because it might land me in jail ... I used to drive taxis at night in a large city and at times I really did feel like killing some people.

In other worlds your morality is centred purely on avoiding punishment.

How does the theory of evolution make any difference to that ? It isn't exactly likely to stop the cops from arresting you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2017 1:53 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5046
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 683 of 1002 (805668)
04-20-2017 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 679 by Dredge
04-20-2017 1:49 AM


Dredge writes:

You disagree with my claim that athesits believe in evolution. I would imagine 99.999999% of atheists in the Western world believe that all life is a result of evolution.

First, no one believes in evolution. You believe in a god. Rational people accept the ToE a fact.
Second, I don't disagree that most atheists accept evolution - I don't know and you offer no evidence as usual - but I suspect if you asked atheists, they would agree. I'm trying to explain to you that the majority think no more of it than they think of any other scientific fact. You're reflecting your obsession onto people who have no such thought process.

It's evident that you are obsessed with ToE - why else would you daily devote your precious time to arguing online with dissenting creationists?

Actually if I'm obsessed with anything it's trying to understand the minds of the deluded creationist. It fascinates me that there are modern people still holding on to 16th century beliefs that have been debunked hundreds of years ago. That's why I'm here.

The ToE is just one part of the puzzle - and a relatively minor one when compared to the other things you are forced to reject like the fact that the earth is old.

You obviously have a quasi-religious attachment to it, and a deep-seated psychological need to believe it and protect it from infidels.

Oh, do grow up.

Your interest in ToE doesn't stem from a love of biology, but from the love of a theory that supposedly proves God doesn't exist.

It's great being told by someone who doesn't know me at all, what I think and feel. You haven't the first clue about me.

The ToE does not prove that God doesn't exist. Please stop repeating this lie or provide evidence to support it.

Many atheists are in the same quasi-religious boat. Hence, it is appropriate to refer to ToE as atheist theology.

You need to believe this because you can't imagine life without your own beliefs. I can only tell you that you're flat out wrong. But that won't stop you repeating the lie.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2017 1:49 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 684 of 1002 (805691)
04-20-2017 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 679 by Dredge
04-20-2017 1:49 AM


more really stupid assertions
Dredge writes:

Your interest in ToE doesn't stem from a love of biology, but from the love of a theory that supposedly proves God doesn't exist. Many atheists are in the same quasi-religious boat. Hence, it is appropriate to refer to ToE as atheist theology.

Such utter stupidity as found in that quote is seldom seen.

First, Christians (those who are honest, not deluded and not willfully ignorant) understand that evolution is a fact and that the Theory of Evolution is the only explanation for the living things that are seen in the world today and in the past.

Second, Christians (those who are honest, not deluded and not willfully ignorant) understand that the two creation stories found in the Bible are simply "Just So" stores, the younger newer tale found in Genesis 1 meant to provide an explanation of the Jewish sacred week and Sabbath and the older folktale found in Genesis 2&3 meant to explain why childbirth seems more painful for humans, why we fear snakes, why we stopped being hunter gatherers, why women should be subordinate to men and why we live in a moral based society.

No Christian who is honest, not deluded and not willfully ignorant thinks they were meant as actual historical facts.

Part of the Just So story in Genesis 3 though does explain why humans (those who are honest, not deluded and not willfully ignorant) do not need God to determine morality and of course later in the Bible that lesson is amplified in Genesis 18 when the God characters was about to commit an immoral act and is lectured by Abraham. (of course the God Character went on and committed the immoral act).

Genesis 3 writes:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Genesis 18 writes:

17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2017 1:49 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 685 of 1002 (805692)
04-20-2017 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 677 by Dredge
04-20-2017 1:44 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Dredge writes:

Faith: "the sicksties"
What a fabulous word! The so-called Enlightenment produced a cult of atheist intellectualism that started chipping away at the strong dam wall of Christainity ... the sicksties marked the final collapse of that dam and the end of Christianity as the dominant cultural force. Evolution stepped in and became the new "theology" of entire civilizations. Welcome to the Great Apostasy.

I like the word, too. I was born in the mid sixties from very religious parents. Not in the US, though. And we weren't even taught evolutionary theory at school! Picked it up later.

Basically; why did they not try to teach us reality at school?

Today I'm being classified as a funtamentalist, radical, atheist. I love it. The Sicksties, hey.

In the sixties I was too young to be a hippy at Woodstock and now I'm too old to be computer wizz...the good old sixties. The lost generation...

Financially I'm doing quite well, though. Two great retirement houses on two continents...all paid off.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2017 1:44 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2017 11:34 PM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 686 of 1002 (805693)
04-20-2017 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 675 by 1.61803
04-19-2017 10:09 AM


Re: Atheists and Evolutionists cant explain 'altruism'..LOVE
""If you believe that living organisms other than humans can be altruistic and develop symbiotic relationships then I would ask you to correlate that with your belief that these things only exist because humans alone hold the monopoly on altruism and symbiosis .
If you doubt that other living organisms possess the ability to be altrusitic and establish symbiotic relationships I would invite you to
do some personal research and reading up on just those topics in nature.""

Yes, your god of Selection and Chance, makes you dumb.... the point is that if you knew the fallacies of your ridiculous theory, by your theory acts of love can not happen, because everything is selfishness, survival of your own self. Love has nothing to do with your theory, it doesnt help any species according to your theory.

Altruism and symbiotic relationships are impossible, because as per usual, the worldly approach is me me me, and fight the others for survival in competition and war.

My religion is love, yours is competition and survival of the meanest and toughest and most selfish.

If you are un-interested in learning about such things because they may conflict with your religious beliefs them perhaps your placing a limit on the God you espouse to believe in.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 675 by 1.61803, posted 04-19-2017 10:09 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 687 by Pressie, posted 04-20-2017 8:53 AM Davidjay has responded
 Message 688 by Davidjay, posted 04-20-2017 8:53 AM Davidjay has not yet responded
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 687 of 1002 (805694)
04-20-2017 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 686 by Davidjay
04-20-2017 8:50 AM


Re: Atheists and Evolutionists cant explain 'altruism'..LOVE
Good Lord. More word salads.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by Davidjay, posted 04-20-2017 8:50 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 689 by Davidjay, posted 04-20-2017 8:57 AM Pressie has responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 688 of 1002 (805695)
04-20-2017 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 686 by Davidjay
04-20-2017 8:50 AM


Re: Atheists and Evolutionists cant explain 'altruism'..LOVE
Again dumb evolutionists must always remember that NOTHING a species does enters into his or her genetics or DNA. No learned behaviour ever can be passed on to the next generation via their DNA......

All symbiotic relationships, ALL as in ALL, come complete at birth ONLY because they were created to work together and survive together. No magic mutations ever created a symbiotic relationship.

And again, evolutionists can not wait a million years hoping to get a love mutation to change their hearts. They just dont have time for that... dream on evolutionists


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by Davidjay, posted 04-20-2017 8:50 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 689 of 1002 (805696)
04-20-2017 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 687 by Pressie
04-20-2017 8:53 AM


Re: Could you explain your Good Lord remarks
The first part of your message Pressie is self explanatory .... when you state

"Good Lord. More word salads."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If by Lord you mean the Lord of Lords, and Prince of Peace, and the ONLY righteous ONE...Jesus. I totally agree. The second part of your partial sentence, needs much much more work.

If a debate you are suppose to explain yourself in a full sentence or full idea, other wise your posting becomes another word salad, which is another indictment against evolutionists and their shallowness.

Thanks, You can do better BRO.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 687 by Pressie, posted 04-20-2017 8:53 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by Pressie, posted 04-20-2017 9:03 AM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 691 by jar, posted 04-20-2017 9:07 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 690 of 1002 (805698)
04-20-2017 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 689 by Davidjay
04-20-2017 8:57 AM


Re: Could you explain your Good Lord remarks
Davidjay writes:

The first part of your message Pressie is self explanatory .... when you state
"Good Lord. More word salads."

It was the entire post. You don't see the humour?

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 689 by Davidjay, posted 04-20-2017 8:57 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
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