Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 886 of 1006 (807565)
05-04-2017 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 855 by Straggler
05-02-2017 9:11 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Straggler writes:
you are now required to prove the following ...
I'm not required to prove the points you suggested because I put myself in the same boat as everyone else - ie, I can't prove that my code of morality is any more correct than anyone else's. Never said I could.
I guess we can research the facts on that if you think it relevant.
No, I don't think you can - because such facts would be nigh on impossible to get. For starters, how could a significant number of career criminals be surveyed if the total number of career criminals is unknown? And how does one go about finding and identifying career criminals, let alone getting them to talk to about their beliefs? They all don't have criminal records, you know; or records that indicate they are careerists. If you visit a jail, most of the inmates aren't career criminals and those that are, how do you identify them? Are they going to put up their hand and say, "I'm a career criminal'? There will be some career criminals in jail who are easy to identify from their records, but there could be a lot who can't be identified as such. Someone serving a life sentence is not necessarily a career criminal, because their crime might be the only crime they've ever committed in their life. Besides, most career criminals are probably not in jail at any one time, but roaming the streets.
Furthermore, such surveys would have to carried out in a significant number of countries from around the world.
Good luck with that ...
things which promote the ongoing existence and well-being of humanity are likely to be deemed morally noble whilst those that act counter to that are deemed morally dubious
You are equating morality with survival. This is no different to a rat learning that some things enhance survival and some things don't - that isn't morality.
And you haven't addressed my point from the previous post: If a decrease in morality results in a decrease in the survival chances of humans, so what? Humans don't need to survive, so there is no need for morality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by Straggler, posted 05-02-2017 9:11 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 924 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-05-2017 10:26 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 963 by Straggler, posted 05-08-2017 3:35 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 887 of 1006 (807567)
05-04-2017 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 858 by Taq
05-02-2017 11:05 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Taq writes:
blind obedience to a man made religion
Prove that it's a man-made religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 858 by Taq, posted 05-02-2017 11:05 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 890 by bluegenes, posted 05-04-2017 3:45 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 888 of 1006 (807568)
05-04-2017 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 859 by Chiroptera
05-02-2017 1:11 PM


Re: Who tries to prove superiority?
Chiroptera writes:
... moral judgements based on some abstract notion of superiority.
It's not "abstract" at all - if it can be established from a exchange of rational ideas that one opinion is right and the other is wrong, then, quiet clearly, the right opinion is superior to the wrong opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by Chiroptera, posted 05-02-2017 1:11 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 896 by Chiroptera, posted 05-04-2017 9:00 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 889 of 1006 (807569)
05-04-2017 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 868 by Dr Adequate
05-03-2017 1:22 AM


Dr Adequate writes:
Hitler was in fact religious
Perhaps you are right ... which religion did he follow? Please don't say Catholicism.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 868 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-03-2017 1:22 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 895 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-04-2017 9:00 AM Dredge has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(2)
Message 890 of 1006 (807570)
05-04-2017 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 887 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:36 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Dredge writes:
Prove that it's a man-made religion.
If he had shown you an acorn and claimed it came from an oak tree, would you have asked for proof?
As with acorns, only one source of religions can be shown to exist. Human invention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:36 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 891 of 1006 (807571)
05-04-2017 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 872 by Tangle
05-03-2017 2:17 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Tangle writes:
Can you point to anything anywhere in the ToE that says anything at all about life after death or ... morality or the meaning of life?
"Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented" - William Provine (late evolutionary scientist and now a reformed atheist)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 872 by Tangle, posted 05-03-2017 2:17 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 892 by Pressie, posted 05-04-2017 4:58 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 897 by Porosity, posted 05-04-2017 9:17 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 898 by Tangle, posted 05-04-2017 2:19 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 899 by Tangle, posted 05-04-2017 2:21 PM Dredge has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 892 of 1006 (807572)
05-04-2017 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 891 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:48 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Dredge writes:
Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented" - William Provine (late evolutionary scientist and now a reformed atheist)
Whether your quote about him is true or not true I disagree with it. To me the internet is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented. I mean, I turned atheist after being allowed to read what non-theists wrote on the net. Things that were not allowed to be written or read in the country I grew up in.
People like Faith and Dredge and Davidjay. Surely not all arguments for Gods can be that stupid? I found that all those people and people like that really have stupid arguments.
Then people such as WLC. Special pleading from beginning to end.
Fundamentalist religious internet warriors helped in turning me atheist. Not evolutionary theory. It happens all over the world where people get educated.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:48 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 893 of 1006 (807593)
05-04-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 885 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:28 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
I can't; but (assuming that my God exists) I don't have to prove that any of God's judgements are righteous and just ...
Then you should probably stop prating about how "God can provide an objective, universal code of morality".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:28 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 894 of 1006 (807594)
05-04-2017 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 884 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:20 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Darwinism: Science or Naturalistic Philosophy? April 30, 1994
Well that's weird because that's the title of a debate between him and Phillip Johnson, and since Johnson is a crazed creationist loon surely Johnson would be pretending that it's a "naturalistic philosophy" while Provine would be arguing that it was science.
So I think you may have made a mistake here. Admittedly Provine was not a scientist, but it is hard to imagine any sane and educated man making such a silly mistake, so it seems more likely that the quote originates with Johnson.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 884 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:20 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 900 by Pressie, posted 05-05-2017 6:09 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 895 of 1006 (807595)
05-04-2017 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 889 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:44 AM


Perhaps you are right ... which religion did he follow? Please don't say Catholicism.
Some sort of Christian. At any rate he was a theist and creationist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:44 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 905 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 7:27 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 896 of 1006 (807596)
05-04-2017 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 888 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:41 AM


How do people approach this question.
Okay, but you've missed my point. But that's probably understandable; I admit not being very clear on the topic.
How does one "prove" one's morality is superior to another person's?
One way is to understand what the other person believes, and use those believes to construct contradictions or "moral dilemmas". If the contradictions are severe enough, the other person may have to reevaluate how they approach the issues and perhaps consider your view point as a better framework.
Or one takes the other person's beliefs and shows that it leads to outcomes that other person will also find objectionable -- that is, present another "moral dilemma". If the dilemma is severe enough, the other person may be force to rethink the issue and perhaps adopt your viewpoint.
Even Christians arguing with me about my moral framework (or what some of them think is a lack of one) use this approach. I can't think of a case where I've witnessed someone trying to convince someone else of the correctness of their moral or ethical position using some kind of first principles. All the discussions I've witnessed involve each person trying to "get into the other person's head" and use their own beliefs to lead them to the desired conclusions.
Someone who believes that their must be an objective basis for morality may object to this because it doesn't really "prove" anything. But I have never seen anyone, not even Christians, do anything any different.
Maybe Australian Catholics have hit on another method?
Edited by Chiroptera, : Typo in the post title, of all places!

Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. — Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:41 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Porosity
Member (Idle past 2093 days)
Posts: 158
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013


(1)
Message 897 of 1006 (807598)
05-04-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 891 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:48 AM


Re: Let's start over.
"Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented" - William Provine (late evolutionary scientist and now a reformed atheist)
Mmm.. Doubt it.
Creationist with their blatant dishonest hypocrisy and lies are the prime movers creating atheist daily.
keep up the good works!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:48 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 909 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 7:51 AM Porosity has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 898 of 1006 (807658)
05-04-2017 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 891 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:48 AM


Re: Let's start over.
duplicate
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:48 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 899 of 1006 (807660)
05-04-2017 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 891 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:48 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Dredge writes:
Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented" - William Provine (late evolutionary scientist and now a reformed atheist)
This is irrelevant, you don't seem to have understood the question - I try again
Can you point to anything anywhere in the ToE that says anything at all about life after death or morality or the meaning of life?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:48 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 906 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 7:34 AM Tangle has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 900 of 1006 (807717)
05-05-2017 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 894 by Dr Adequate
05-04-2017 8:59 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Doc, thanks for pointing out that Provine was a historian and not a scientist. Thanks for pointing out that Dredge was not telling the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 894 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-04-2017 8:59 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 908 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 7:45 AM Pressie has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024