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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Chiroptera
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Posts: 6352
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 916 of 1001 (807803)
05-05-2017 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 914 by Davidjay
05-05-2017 11:33 AM


Oh, good heavens!
ANSWER Hitler used evolutionary theory as a basis for his rascism and inbreeding camps where he got German teens to copulate to bring on a 'superior race'. Furthermore, Hitler used evolutionary theory to give the basis for the extermination of minorities whether it was poor Jews, or gypsies or gays, etc etc.....

No, Hitler didn't use evolutionary theory, so you're wrong right out of the gate.

But mainly your post has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my question, and it doesn't have anything to do with Dredge's point either (he can correct me if I'm wrong).

You're going to have to do a better job reading what people have wrote; picking a random word and then going into free association isn't an effective method of debate.

If you want to talk about racism, there's a perfectly good thread for that already - Evolution is a racist doctrine - although it appears you're done with racism and are trying to drag that thread off topic.

Edited by Chiroptera, : Minor typo.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
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vimesey
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Posts: 868
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 917 of 1001 (807805)
05-05-2017 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 901 by Dredge
05-05-2017 6:39 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
You assume a need to prove a moral code to be correct - try demonstrating that need. No one arguing against your position is of the view that a moral code can be, or needs to be, proved correct. You are tilting at windmills.

Big deal.

To me, yes.

You missed the thrust of my point though. My moral code is one that has not been passed to me by a supposedly superior being. It's my code, and I face the world's opinion of it squarely in the eye, no excuses.

If there were a god, who manifested himself and told you to kill all of the children in your home town, my guess is you'd do it.

Me, I'd tell him to go screw himself.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 6:39 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15934
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 918 of 1001 (807807)
05-05-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 902 by Dredge
05-05-2017 6:46 AM


I can demonstrate my point by using The Parable of the Empty Box:

An empty box is an empty box. Only a deluded/dysfunctional mind sees something in an empty box.

This is a very deep concept, so don't get discouraged if you don't initially understand it. But persevere and keep thinking about it - finally the penny will drop.

Well, if you know what you think you're talking about, how about you cut to the chase and explain it to the rest of us?


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15934
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 919 of 1001 (807809)
05-05-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 905 by Dredge
05-05-2017 7:27 AM


A citation please.

The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator. - Adolf Hitler, Hitler's Tabletalk (Tischgesprache im Fuhrerhauptquartier)

For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties. - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. ii, ch. x

From where do we get the right to believe, that from the very beginning Man was not what he is today? Looking at Nature tells us, that in the realm of plants and animals changes and developments happen. But nowhere inside a kind shows such a development as the breadth of the jump , as Man must supposedly have made, if he has developed from an ape-like state to what he is today. - Adolf Hitler, Hitler's Tabletalk (Tischgesprache im Fuhrerhauptquartier)

The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger. The only difference that can exist within the species must be in the various degrees of structural strength and active power, in the intelligence, efficiency, endurance, etc., with which the individual specimens are endowed. (Mein Kampf, vol. i, ch. xi)

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15934
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 920 of 1001 (807810)
05-05-2017 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 910 by Dredge
05-05-2017 7:57 AM


Wiki' describes Jones as "an American comminist and cult leader". If he was also a Christian, he was a very poor example of one.

But for the word "American", that's probably about how Pontius Pilate would have described Jesus.


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6352
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 921 of 1001 (807811)
05-05-2017 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 905 by Dredge
05-05-2017 7:27 AM


Hitler was a baptised Catholic, but so what? What has Nazism got to do with Catholicism?

Well, at a minimum it shows that it's a bit simplistic to equate morality with Christianity.

And if that doesn't undercut the main thrust of your argument then I wish you'd be a little more clear as to what you are trying to say.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
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Posts: 4762
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 922 of 1001 (807817)
05-05-2017 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 906 by Dredge
05-05-2017 7:34 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Dredge writes:

I know what you're getting at, but you can't separate reality into separate compartments.

I suspect you don't mean reality.

Darwinism is an idea that has undeniable ontological implications. This is obvioius from the contrasting reactions of clerics and athesits to Darwin's book after it was published.

As did the discoveries of geology and astronomy - old earth and heliocentricity. As did medicine and the scientific method generally. Combined, they proved the errors of primitive, superstitious thinking.

That is not the fault of science, none of these discoveries have anything whatsoever to do with religion - they just happen to demonstrate that religion is wrong.

And that is reality. No amount of complaining can change reality.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15934
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 923 of 1001 (807818)
05-05-2017 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 906 by Dredge
05-05-2017 7:34 AM


Re: Let's start over.
I know what you're getting at, but you can't separate reality into separate compartments. Darwinism is an idea that has undeniable ontological implications.

What do you think "ontological" means?

This is obvioius from the contrasting reactions of clerics and athesits to Darwin's book after it was published.

Y'mean, the Biblical literalists didn't like it? Sure they didn't. But that's not because it says or implies "anything at all about life after death or morality or the meaning of life". It's 'cos it casts doubt on the story about the talking snake.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15934
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 924 of 1001 (807834)
05-05-2017 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:33 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
I'm not required to prove the points you suggested because I put myself in the same boat as everyone else - ie, I can't prove that my code of morality is any more correct than anyone else's. Never said I could.

So if you're right about that then the remaining difference between us is that I can say genocide is wrong and you can't.

Christianity, eh?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Dredge
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Posts: 407
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 925 of 1001 (807842)
05-06-2017 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 911 by Pressie
05-05-2017 8:04 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Nice try, but I didn't lie about Provine; I was relying on memory for that part of the quote. Has your memory ever let you down?
This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6352
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 926 of 1001 (807868)
05-06-2017 9:42 AM


Creationist summary?
So far, the only conclusion I can get from the creationist Christian side is:

If evolution/atheism is true, then morality is subjective. But so what?

Is that more or less accurate? 'Cause, honestly, you're not doing a particularly good job at filling in the "so what" part.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. Billy Bragg

Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 927 of 1001 (807873)
05-06-2017 10:11 AM


Evolution can not explain any observed facts let alone altruistic acts between individuals in a species, nor symbiotic relationships.

Altuism is acts of love. Evolution is a con, evolution is a myth. Evolution has nothing to do with behaviours or instincts that are given each species or KIND at creation. Evolutionists can not take the credit for adaptations, instincts, behaviours....... I repeat learned behaviours and behaviours themselves are not evolved and genetic explosions dont make better behaviours in our genes, nor do behaviours or morality change with each new generation of animals or humans.

Babies are babies and come out the same way as with the original babies, from the original couple. NO difference.... so called branching is racism, evolution is racism..... and creates nationalism and wars.

Creation and equality wins, evolution loses.

Morality is how we treat others, love is the answer.

God is love, deal with it. Understand it, accept it.

Love wins.

.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


Replies to this message:
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RAZD
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Posts: 18650
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 928 of 1001 (807874)
05-06-2017 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 926 by Chiroptera
05-06-2017 9:42 AM


Re: Creationist summary? vs rationalist summary
So far, the only conclusion I can get from the creationist Christian side is:

If evolution/atheism is true, then morality is subjective. But so what?

[creationist-mode]

Because then it will be moral to rape, murder and eat children, that's what I (the creationist) would do ...

[/creationist-mode]

ie, if it is not written in stone then anything goes ...

... which ignores the fact that people live in groups that interact with other people, so they would likely kill you as soon as possible if you tried to do that - for self preservation.

Morals are behaviors that are considered good for the preservation of the group.

They are memes passed from one generation to the next.

They evolve with the times and changing social mores, so stoning becomes immoral and gay marriage becomes moral, because this reduces harm to the population.

Morals written in stone are not as forgiving, so we still see people stoned to death for perceived moral reasons, we still see racism and misogyny and other forms of bigotry being considered "moral" by the stone code.

Who enforces the social moral codes? The society.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : .


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 926 by Chiroptera, posted 05-06-2017 9:42 AM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6352
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 929 of 1001 (807893)
05-06-2017 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 927 by Davidjay
05-06-2017 10:11 AM


repetition is repetitious
Evolution can not explain any observed facts let alone altruistic acts between individuals in a species, nor symbiotic relationships.

Another false statement that has already been disposed of earlier in this thread. So this time, you're wrong before you even got to the gate.

-

...so called branching is racism, evolution is racism..... and creates nationalism and wars.

Which is something else that has been disposed of completely back on the racism thread: Evolution is a racist doctrine. By all means, you are welcome to go back there and repeat the same junk over and over again and we'll just stuff it in the junk bin all over again.

I realize that you are working under a severe disadvantage: you know absolutely nothing about the theory of evolution. But seeing how you are utterly unwilling to learn anything, it's kind of your own fault.

It doesn't help, either, that you don't really understand how logic works.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 927 by Davidjay, posted 05-06-2017 10:11 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2896
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 930 of 1001 (807911)
05-06-2017 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 928 by RAZD
05-06-2017 10:11 AM


Quibbles the quibbler
RAZD writes:

Morals are behaviors that are considered good for the preservation of the group.

Is it necessarily "...for the preservation of the group?"

Maybe morals are simply behaviours that are considered good.

And, on top of that, 'behaviours that are considered good' include those behaviours that preserve the group.
But perhaps not limited only to such a thing.

Like not cheating in a board game when you know you won't get caught.

Certainly not something that preserves the group.
But also "good morals," no?

I suppose you could use another word for such a thing... like 'honour' instead of 'moral'... but that seems like a cop-out to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 928 by RAZD, posted 05-06-2017 10:11 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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